Debian removes FPC/Lazarus

[Thaddy]

If Qt was toxic it wouldn't be in Debian as standard. That may have (was indeed) been the case in the distant past.

Also: drop Qt5 and Qt6 in the same sentence: Qt5 has Wayland issues on its own that are not fixed. Qt6 does not have these issues. There are still some things that GTK2 lovers want and are not yet there, like window positioning, but at least there is now a Wayland protocol extension on which that can be implemented.

The focus should be strictly on GTK4, maybe GTK3 and Qt6, not 5.

(Btw, Marcov, Wayland support for Wine is still incomplete, so not recommended even if it is officially released)

[marcov]

(Btw, Marcov, Wayland support for Wine is still incomplete, so not recommended even if it is officially released)

Thanks, good to know, but my point was more that it didn't require additional development effort.

[ron.dunn]

@Thaddy I think you're making a mistake by promoting GTK4 at this time.

GTK3 is the current production recommendation. In fact, GTK advises that GTK2 code first migrate to GTK3, it's easier, and later plan a migration to GTK4.

I think this should be the strategic direction for Lazarus on Linux. It remains the most widely supported desktop platform without licensing issues.

[dbannon]

Folks, I started this thread, in theory, should I have some say in where it goes ? Instead, a long lecture !

Firstly, I would like to stop anyone commenting here who has not, recently tested Lazarus with Gtk3 - OK ?

There really is quite a lot being said that, IMHO, indicates posters are not familiar with Lazarus and its ability to use multiple widget sets. So, some facts -

• Its really easy to switch between widgets when making Lazarus apps on Linux. 
• You do not need to be using any particular widget to make an app with any particular (possibly different) widget.
• The Gnome people, who make gtk, gtk2 gtk3 and gtk4 'release' a product then continue to develop, change, alter it making creating the bindings and widget specific interface files very difficult until they decide it is done, finished, no more changes.
• Gtk2 hit that 'done' stage many year ago, in that time, a stable Lazarus interface developed. That is, between the time the Gnome Devs declared it 'done' and quite recently.
• Not that long ago, Gtk3 was declared 'done', suddenly, the Lazarus Devs had a stable target to aim at and the Gtk3 interface has improved enormously.

When I do a release of my app, I make, for Linux Gtk2, Qt5 and Qt6 version, it takes very little extra time to spit out three packages (and soon, 4 packages) and I let my end users choose what they need. Linux apps should always be released as a package (deb, rpm, pacman, AppImage) so, honestly, resolving dependencies is not hard.

So, lets stop this silly talk about having to 'choose' a widget set, we can choose them all !

For the official packages on SourceForge, I'd suggest gtk2 for older systems and Qt6 for newer ones. And, probably sooner rather than later, add gtk3 to that mix.

Yes, by all means, lets start on Gtk4, but don't expect it to be ready to go for some time.
Davo

[robert rozee]

[...] Firstly, I would like to stop anyone commenting here who has not, recently tested Lazarus with Gtk3 [...]

hi Dave,
    just tried to build with GTK3, got the following results:

Compile Project, Mode: Testing WS, Target: /home/user/pascal/GFXterm 2.1d/project1: Exit code 1, Errors: 1, Warnings: 2
Warning: linker: /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgtk-3: No such file or directory
Warning: linker: /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgdk-3: No such file or directory
project1.lpr(27,1) Error: Error while linking

this was using LCL 3.6.0, FPC 3.2.2.

what do i need to do to resolve the error?


cheers,
rob   :-)

[zeljko]

You must use Lazarus trunk for gtk3, also install gtk3/gdk3 devel packages to fix linker errors.

[robert rozee]

You must use Lazarus trunk for gtk3 [...]

well, that excludes me from further discussions then - i only run the Lazarus packages downloadable from Sourceforge.

i had rather hoped that Dave would reply that i just needed a newer LCL version: as well as the 3.6 i use, i see Sourceforge also has packages for 3.8, 4.0, 4.2, 4.4, and 4.6:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/lazarus/files/Lazarus%20Linux%20amd64%20DEB/


so long, and thanks for all the fish.
rob   :-)

[dbannon]

You must use Lazarus trunk for gtk3, also install gtk3/gdk3 devel packages to fix linker errors.

Yeah, I guess I should have said that. Sigh. You need to be using the Lazarus Main (aka trunk, master etc) as it has all the new gtk3 content. And if you are running a deb based system, you need to install the package libgtk-3-dev on your system (but not needed on end user system). Not sure what the RPM version is called, Arch do not need -dev packages.

zeljko has been doing some great work, I reckon he needs people to test it. We'd all like to see it in Lazarus 5.0 !

Davo 

[PascalDragon]

i had rather hoped that Dave would reply that i just needed a newer LCL version: as well as the 3.6 i use, i see Sourceforge also has packages for 3.8, 4.0, 4.2, 4.4, and 4.6:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/lazarus/files/Lazarus%20Linux%20amd64%20DEB/

Considering that zeljko is currently actively working on getting GTK3 to a usable state of course you need to use the current development version and not a release.

as i pointed out earlier: we have one dead widget set (GTK2/3/etc), one legally toxic widget set (Qt5/6/etc), and a few obscure dribs-and-drabs that according to some don't even compile.

The problem with the Toxic designation is that is the hardline GNU interpretation of the GPL, that is not commonly shared.  Granted, I can't identify the old clause that was in the GPL2 iirc for delivered with OS libraries any more in the GPL3. A clause that defanged the toxic bit (as you would use the QT delivered with the OS and its package systems). But that might just because I only superficially looked, and not really deep into the matter any more.

The main libraries that the Qt widgetset provides and the LCL needs (core, gui and widgets) are released as LGPL, so it's no problem to link against them dynamically. What is an issue for non Open Source software however is to link against them statically.
For Lazarus applications one might solve this by compiling libqt6pas statically, at least one would only need to have the Qt core libraries provided from the system like with GTK.

[robert rozee]

[...] given the impending demise of GTK2 that others predict, the abandonment of development of GTK3 by the GTK developers before it was even completed, i think it is sensible to label GTK as a poor project to pin one's hopes on [...]

i'm getting the feeling i have been misled over the GTK2/3 situation - having relied upon what others had said about GTK being correct.

further digging reveals another 'version of reality':

• GTK2 is alive and well, there is no further development being carried out because it is considered by the GTK developers to be a completed and stable project that has been that way for a number of years.
• GTK3, in the last year, has reached the same stage as GTK2. ie, GTK3 is also considered a 'complete and stable project' by the GTK developers.
• GTK4 is still under development, and as such still has 'unresolved issues'.

from the perspective of the Lazarus (LCL) developers:

• the LCL interface to GTK2 is, and has been for quite some time, 'of production quality'. it is in a state where it can be used in shipping software products. as such, the interface is shipped with the Lazarus packages on Sourceforge.
• the LCL interface to GTK3 currently has issues, and is not of production quality. as such, it is not available in any shipping version of the Lazarus packages on Sourceforge. but it is getting there!
  
• GTK4, from the perspective of someone wanting to ship a software product using Lazarus, is a non-starter. one day, maybe, but certainly not in the near future.

from the perspective of the Debian developers:

• they want to kill GTK2; they do not want anyone using it.
  
• they are happy with GTK3, and do want people using it.
• GTK4 is something for the future, but not a usable thing today.

is the summary correct?

it looks like there have been many red-herrings in the fish supply!

cheers,
rob.

[JuhaManninen]

well, that excludes me from further discussions then - i only run the Lazarus packages downloadable from Sourceforge.

Why? You seem to be interested in LCK-GTK3 development and would be a perfect beta tester. Yes, LCK-GTK3 is in beta state now.
Lazarus trunk is very easy to download and build.

[MarkMLl]

GTK2 is alive and well, there is no further development being carried out because it is considered by the GTK developers to be a completed and stable project that has been that way for a number of years.

It's alive, well, and imminently being dropped by the major distreaux.

In a few months time you will not be able to rely on your users obtaining it easily.

You will also not be able to obtain it easily as a developer, particularly if you are reluctant to go to a project's own repository and possibly build from source.

MarkMLl

[tetrastes]

• GTK4 is something for the future, but not a usable thing today.

is the summary correct?

No, for sure GTK4 is a usable thing today. https://gtk.org/: GTK4 is stable, GTK3 is old stable. In modern distros (including Debian 13) Gnome is based on GTK4.

[dbannon]

i'm getting the feeling i have been misled over the GTK2/3 situation - having relied upon what others had said about GTK being correct.
further digging reveals another 'version of reality':

No, not really. Maybe you have not been listening to what people here have been telling you ?
Most of what you say in this post is 'right-ish' but perhaps your interpretation of it is a bit dodgy.
Gtk2 is being dropped because (eg) its hard to make work with Wayland, its hard to maintain (because its old code thats been endlessly hacked and so on. Its worth noting that gtk3 and gtk4 are, in some way, derivatives of gtk2. They are not completely new products. All big code bases evolve over time, sometimes with small incremental changes, sometimes big shifts and version numbering. Lazarus, because it shields us from that constantly moving gtk target, hides those changes.

Debian is dropping gtk2 because they consider having three GTKs there is just too much and most active projects have moved to gtk3 (and a few even to gtk4) or Qt5/6.

There is no conspiracy here Robert, its how the software world works. If it was not like that we'd be still setting up octal numbers with switches and pressing 'clock' after each one.

Despite what Mark says, I'll bet that there will be a distribution or two still shipping a version of gtk2 for some years. Who knows, maybe one that is Wayland and SystemD free. And runs 32bit code.....

Davo



 

[robert rozee]

[...] You seem to be interested in LCK-GTK3 development and would be a perfect beta tester. Yes, LCL-GTK3 is in beta state now. Lazarus trunk is very easy to download and build.

a few times i've attempted to report bugs, and provided fixes, but received fairly negative and unhelpful responses; i have no interest in wasting any more of my time in that direction. i am far more interested in creating my own projects written using Lazarus/FPC, and for that - code i am generally giving away to others - those projects need to be buildable using release-level tools. ie, downloadable from Sourceforge; as yet there is NO GTK3-capable version available on Sourceforge.

[GTK2]'s alive, well, and imminently being dropped by the major distreaux.

and this, they (Debian at least) seem to be doing as a means of forcing their own ideology upon everyone else. forced ideologies are a really good way to persuade me to walk away from a project. the last release of GTK2.x (2.24.33, on 21st December 2020) is only 5 years old, which is extremely young when compared to, for instance, win32, that has been around for over a quarter of century and is still supported in the latest release of Windows.

the last release of GTK3.x (3.24.51, on 30 September 2025) is less than 6 months old! yet some folks seem to be suggesting that GTK3 is already obsolete and/or end-of-life. i am glad to see that there is work going on getting the LCL working with GTK3, as this seems (to me at least) to be the most sensible direction for the Lazarus project to be moving in.

[...] GTK2 is being dropped because (eg) its hard to make work with Wayland, its hard to maintain (because its old code that [has] been endlessly hacked and so on. [...] Debian is dropping GTK2 because they consider having three GTKs there is just too much and most active projects have moved to GTK3 (and a few even to GTK4) or Qt5/6.

from what i have read, Wayland has issues that preclude it being viewed as 'production level' just yet. and i also wonder what the purpose of creating Wayland actually was; X11 seems to work fine, while ever increasing processing power and available RAM negates complaints of any 'inefficiencies' X11 suffers from. Wayland looks very much like a solution looking for a problem.

i would also ask the question - what is wrong with GTK2? there has been suggestions that the tools no longer exist to compile it, but i find this extremely hard to believe. and the GTK developers have marked it as 'complete', to me that suggests that it is code that requires no more work on it, not that it is no longer usable.


cheers,
rob   :-)