Recent

Author Topic: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?  (Read 20434 times)

Joanna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1429
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #210 on: May 14, 2025, 12:38:52 am »
I believe that there is a way to do web apps using pascal, if not there should be.

JD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1906
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #211 on: May 14, 2025, 08:53:55 am »
I believe that there is a way to do web apps using pascal, if not there should be.

Yes. Here are two frameworks from some of our forum members from Brazil  :D

D2Bridge Framework https://www.d2bridge.com.br/

Brook Framework https://risoflora.github.io/brookframework/, https://github.com/risoflora/brookframework

And another one from a Pascal user somewhere out there:

Fano Framework https://fanoframework.github.io/
Linux Mint - Lazarus 4.0/FPC 3.2.2,
Windows - Lazarus 4.0/FPC 3.2.2

mORMot 2, PostgreSQL & MariaDB.

Thaddy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17213
  • Ceterum censeo Trump esse delendam
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #212 on: May 14, 2025, 09:03:44 am »
Why did you forget pas2js, wasm/wasi? The default distribution contains everything you need to write web apps. Main/trunk is even better at it.
Due to censorship, I changed this to "Nelly the Elephant". Keeps the message clear.

marcov

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12270
  • FPC developer.
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #213 on: May 14, 2025, 10:00:45 am »
Why did you forget pas2js, wasm/wasi? The default distribution contains everything you need to write web apps. Main/trunk is even better at it.

Because they are client side, and a totally different approach to traditional web usage.

Thaddy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17213
  • Ceterum censeo Trump esse delendam
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #214 on: May 14, 2025, 10:12:26 am »
pas2js is definitely not client side only (node.js)
There is also the small matter of how yo interpret web apps.
I have been running Pascal driven web servers for IONS as you well know.
Well over 30 years.
Due to censorship, I changed this to "Nelly the Elephant". Keeps the message clear.

JD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1906
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #215 on: May 14, 2025, 10:17:54 am »
Why did you forget pas2js, wasm/wasi? The default distribution contains everything you need to write web apps. Main/trunk is even better at it.

Thanks for the reminder  :D
Linux Mint - Lazarus 4.0/FPC 3.2.2,
Windows - Lazarus 4.0/FPC 3.2.2

mORMot 2, PostgreSQL & MariaDB.

marcov

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12270
  • FPC developer.
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #216 on: May 14, 2025, 10:42:46 am »
pas2js is definitely not client side only (node.js)

I assume you could run node.js on the server too, but I don't know if that really is a thing.

Quote
There is also the small matter of how yo interpret web apps.

I'm a bit conservative there. Running apps in local webservers or javascript applications are IMHO not really web apps. I.o.w there is more to a web app than web technology alone, and that is the web, aka internet in some client-server capacity. 

Rule of thumb, if the same app in a native language is not a webapp, then neither is the javascript one. By that definition server side node.js would qualify, client side not.

But this is all just gut feelings.

Quote
I have been running Pascal driven web servers for IONS as you well know.
Well over 30 years.

My first FPC cgi (for xshttpd) was in 1998-2000, it implemented a web counter. I actually ported FPC to FreeBSD for it :)

I also had Delphi application using an indy webserver, and a more sizable one managed by a team using Webhub.


Fibonacci

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
  • Internal Error Hunter
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #217 on: May 14, 2025, 10:54:30 am »
pas2js is definitely not client side only (node.js)

I assume you could run node.js on the server too, but I don't know if that really is a thing.

"too"? Node.js was created for running on servers, its not just "a thing", its the MAIN thing Node.js was made for

VisualLab

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #218 on: May 14, 2025, 11:47:02 am »
You didn't understand. Religion has nothing to do with what I wrote. There is also no need to invoke beings smarter than humans, who may or may not exist somewhere in deep space. It's about the scope and capabilities of humans and animals.
I can say that it's you who doesn't understand.
First, religion or faith has everything to do with it.
If you believe in some kind of “blind evolution” (that's your definition) then that's exactly what you believe in.
Because at least the theory of evolution in its classical form is still unproven.
But if you believe in it, then you yourself and all the products of your life (including our beloved Pascal) are also products of “blind evolution”.

There is no place for any kind of faith in exact sciences, natural sciences, or technical fields. Only knowledge in terms of causes and effects matters. Either it is known how something works or it does not.

And if you have doubts whether evolution works (and whether it is true), there are books and biologists who will explain it to you.

marcov

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12270
  • FPC developer.
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #219 on: May 14, 2025, 01:15:37 pm »
For a woman's body in general, this is sometimes catastrophic. All doctors say that the biological time for a woman to conceive a healthy child is before the age of 25. What kind of study or career can she have then? Especially if she wants to have time to find a good husband and give birth to more than one child before 25.

This quote shows exactly the problem with the reasoning. You paint a very modern scheme, but judge it by antiquated social structures, and not even from the kind of societies that primitive humans would have had. Pair bonding is not necessarily as strong in hunter gatherer communities, if only that for a long time (on evolutionary scales) the relation between sex and delivering a child 9 months later was not as clear.

And anyway, you could solve this by implementing decent childcare and a living wage for graduate students (for single or both partners regardless of sex) right now for a lot less than all the futuristic nonsense.

Quote
Alexander the Great died at the age of ~32, having already conquered a large number of ancient states.
Jesus Christ died at the age of ~33, having become wise enough to change history for the next 2000 years and more.

Alexander's died of illness, Jesus Christ was not a natural death, moreover both are not related to hunter-gather societies.

You missed my favourite,  Abraham died at the blessed age of 50. Nowadays that would be considered cursed.

Quote
Anthropologists say that the human body in general is originally designed for an maximum 40 years.

"designed"? You mean evolved?

Anyway. I'm no anthropologist nor genetics expert, but got a bit of biology and genetics as part of my chemistry studies.

Some parts of the body start to reproduce more slowly with middle age, but that doesn't mean that that middle age period is a hard maximum. IIRC the anthropologist view was that elders in social structures can help their offspring with their (first?) children, and function as longer memory for the tribe (e.g. when migrating). This has been shown to be the case in great apes, while starting to lower the metabolism eases drain on resources for the group/tribe.

Also, that doesn't mean that those human matriarchs(*) would no longer be able to reproduce at that age. In a natural (hunter-gatherer)state, women are pregnant a lot, and thus ovulate less, and thus keep on ovulating to a later age, typically beyond 40. Note that more pregnancies does not necessarily mean more children since child mortality is high.

(*) Most literature uses females as examples, but don't talk about males. I don't know if it is assumed that females take a bigger part in their children's first child delivery, or for other reasons.

And many of those issues can be mitigated by medicine/dentistry. A more hard limit is parts that don't replace at all, like most nerve cells including the brain and some glands.  That limit is more 75-100 depending on the individual's genetics.

Quote
It was rare to live past 30. Either tribal warfare, or disease, or being killed by an animal while hunting, and so on.

Still is.  Knowledge is based on old testimonies from both (mostly Western, sometimes Arab or Chinese authors,  and  directly from the "native" side), combined with current experiences of hunter gatherers in the Amazon to root out old biases and oversights.

Though I'd guess the average age of natural death usually a bit higher than 30. This because the non natural causes of death depend on region and lifestyle it allows. Not all tribes are in regions where humans majorly compete for resources, nor do they all hunt big game. Actually native tribes are quite good in managing hunting risks, my favourite there is African tribes (iirc Khoisan) using exhaustion hunt that is a lot more work, but probably they still do because it is safer. At the same time it leverages an human trait that is often considered a detail (being fairly hairless and the consequences that that has for sweating).

Fire and the corresponding cooking of food,  which decrease the risk of intestinal parasites was probably also an factor that is hard to overestimate (150ka, Eastern Africa).

Disease is always a risk, as 2020 has shown, but also has a strong correlation to the inter-human contact factor, and potentially the levels vary between early civilisations with denser population and contacts while  for relatively isolated hunter-gatherers tribes it is lower.

Quote
And this is how our ancestors lived for hundreds of centuries. An indirect confirmation of this is teeth which in many people begin to seriously deteriorate after 40 years even if they are well cared for.

If the average age can be raised to 75 and beyond, then I wonder what you define as "serious"

Quote
And women can and physiologically should give birth right from the age of 13-14. What kind of long study can there be?

That ability is not fixed and can vary by individual by several years, and it is also not fixed in that it depends on adequate (amount and also quality) food. Primitive tribes possibly always had growth limitations due to dry or cold seasons, and first menses correlates with that.  The fact that women stop growing around 15-17 years (even with adequate food) makes that a much more logical age than first menses.

Moreover early pregnancy increases the risk for women (without modern delivery methods) as the pelvic bone structure keeps widening after puberty, decreasing the risk of pregnancy complications. I only saw that as remark, without much info which age would be safe(r), but maybe your ideal age of for childbirth of 25 (or at least the reason why it is not as young as possible)  is due to this reason. 

Besides, keep in mind that because something in the old times this was a problem causing evolution, this is not really a hard decree that it should be now too. Evolution is governed by bottlenecks, not averages.

Quote
We can change this either genetically (live ~300 years) or we can integrate learning directly into the brain via implants.
And I suspect that implants will appear sooner than genetic longevity.

Raising the average age way above 80 will be hard and require technology that is the realm of SF due to the brain cells not replicating. Any claims about it should be considered with extreme scepticism.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2025, 03:29:54 pm by marcov »

munair

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 884
  • compiler developer @SharpBASIC
    • SharpBASIC
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #220 on: May 14, 2025, 01:46:34 pm »
Is this still about Pascal? I know it's still alive after 50+ years, but that's a different kind of evolution.
It's only logical.

Joanna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1429
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #221 on: May 14, 2025, 02:08:39 pm »
I know many people who decided not to have children because they don’t consider them to be important or they only think of them in terms of costing money. They say oh other people will have children, no need for me to have any. All they care about is working and making money. It’s very strange. Or sometimes they think they can have them later and get middle aged and realize that they have become infertile.

Economic factors and uncertainty also make people not have children. People spend a very large portion of their lives well past puberty in school learning things that they in most cases will not even remember.... it’s a luxury which people in the past would find inconceivable..

Fred vS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3623
    • StrumPract is the musicians best friend
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #222 on: May 14, 2025, 02:58:31 pm »
In a natural (hunter-gatherer)state, women are pregnant a lot, and thus ovulate less, so their ovaries produces eggs to a later age, typically beyond 40.

Ha? I was told that the ovaries don't produce new eggs after birth. Women are born with a fixed number of eggs, which decreases over time. Ovulating less often may preserve some eggs, but it doesn't extend egg production beyond 40.

But I was probably lied to.
I use Lazarus 2.2.0 32/64 and FPC 3.2.2 32/64 on Debian 11 64 bit, Windows 10, Windows 7 32/64, Windows XP 32,  FreeBSD 64.
Widgetset: fpGUI, MSEgui, Win32, GTK2, Qt.

https://github.com/fredvs
https://gitlab.com/fredvs
https://codeberg.org/fredvs

marcov

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12270
  • FPC developer.
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #223 on: May 14, 2025, 03:28:39 pm »
Ha? I was told that the ovaries don't produce new eggs after birth. Women are born with a fixed number of eggs, which decreases over time. Ovulating less often may preserve some eggs, but it doesn't extend egg production beyond 40.

But I was probably lied to.

No that is correct, and that is the reason why the number is finite. But if a woman is pregnant, no ovulation happens, so the number lasts longer. My "producing" in that sentence should be read as ovulating, not actually making the eggs, sorry for the confusion.

alpine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1391
Re: Why isn't Lazarus / Free Pascal more popular?
« Reply #224 on: May 14, 2025, 04:11:43 pm »
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
—HAL 9000

 

TinyPortal © 2005-2018