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Author Topic: FPC on Web3  (Read 6971 times)

MarkMLl

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2024, 02:44:40 pm »
You don't give us any doses of knowledge. In most of your posts, you flaunt slogans and vague generalities, sprinkled with a hint of indulgent pity.

It's bullshit. He's had plenty of opportunity to explain himself, and while I definitely wouldn't jump on board the "everybody's out to get us" bandwagon hauled by one particular member of the community I don't think he's quite on the same planet.

From my- dare I say it- somewhat experienced POV, which has seen its share of failed projects and outright scams, this reminds me of two things. The first is Project Xanadu, where Ted Nelson insisted on dressing up every data structure with a unique made-up name: Enfilade, Ent, Granfilade (Grand Enfilade), POOMfilade (Permutation Of Order Matrix Enfilade), Spanfilade (Spanning Enfilade), Switcheroo, Switcheroonie, tumbler and so on.

The second is some weird Lisp-based operating system whose name escapes me, which was founded on the belief that if somebody could offer something elegant enough the World would immediately beat a path to his door... and the Hell with whether it could run a browser that allowed people to get at their online banking.

The one thing that has, /possibly/ changed is that these days people seem happy with the idea of complex systems embedded in what are effectively VMs inside their browsers, and the potential for them to engage in peer-to-peer operations. From a security and overall robustness POV that is an utter nightmare, and while I do concede that OP is at least aware of GDPR his complete inability to explain himself does nothing to make me think that he has anything to offer us, or that we have anything to offer him within the scope of our limited resources.

MarkMLl
MT+86 & Turbo Pascal v1 on CCP/M-86, multitasking with LAN & graphics in 128Kb.
Logitech, TopSpeed & FTL Modula-2 on bare metal (Z80, '286 protected mode).
Pet hate: people who boast about the size and sophistication of their computer.
GitHub repositories: https://github.com/MarkMLl?tab=repositories

VisualLab

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2024, 02:54:15 pm »
You have already received answers to these questions.
I do not want to write "rants", so once again I ask for self-education.
https://internetcomputer.org/how-it-works

Can't you do it without a condescending tone? For example: "Descriptions of technical solutions used in our projects are available at: <link here>". But you can't (don't want to) abandon your nature as a marketing tout.

P.S. MarkMLI, I have a request - choose your words in such a way that the reader does not get the impression that you treat people from above. Respect others, address them more politely, please. Let's agree that if the tone of your statements does not change, I will ignore your posts, because they do not contribute anything substantive anyway. The fact that this thread is popular has greater value for the discussed issue. So greetings to the absent readers. Thank you. :)

Look at how you worded your first statement. You constantly intersperse your statements with phrases that contain a condescending tone. Even the above statement is written in a patronizing (and even superior) form. So what do you expect in response? That the participants will make public self-criticism and "apologize for being alive"? Cool down.

P.S.1. I am involved in various international projects, where it is a good practice to greet project participants taking into account different time zones. I leave the rest to your intelligence.

Look at how you worded your first statement. You constantly intersperse your statements with phrases that contain a condescending tone. Even the above statement is written in a patronizing form. So what do you expect in response? That the participants will make public self-criticism and "apologize for being alive"?

Blacha

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2024, 03:03:51 pm »
I will try to ask the question from the first post again - what do you see as potential obstacles to building Web3 solutions with WebAssembly in the FPC/Lazarus environment? :)
  • One of the veiled reasons "our limited resources" - this is a serious argument.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2024, 03:16:26 pm by Blacha »

MarkMLl

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2024, 03:27:26 pm »
I will try to ask the question from the first post again - what do you see as potential obstacles to building Web3 solutions with WebAssembly in the FPC/Lazarus environment? :)

You :-)

MarkMLl
MT+86 & Turbo Pascal v1 on CCP/M-86, multitasking with LAN & graphics in 128Kb.
Logitech, TopSpeed & FTL Modula-2 on bare metal (Z80, '286 protected mode).
Pet hate: people who boast about the size and sophistication of their computer.
GitHub repositories: https://github.com/MarkMLl?tab=repositories

VisualLab

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2024, 03:34:10 pm »
You don't give us any doses of knowledge. In most of your posts, you flaunt slogans and vague generalities, sprinkled with a hint of indulgent pity.

It's bullshit. He's had plenty of opportunity to explain himself, and while I definitely wouldn't jump on board the "everybody's out to get us" bandwagon hauled by one particular member of the community I don't think he's quite on the same planet.

Of course, this is by no means an "attack on Pascal". OP is just trying to "strongly encourage" people to get involved with blockchain technology. In my opinion, this is an intrusive advertisement by internet portals promoting such solutions. Perhaps he is an employee of the advertising department of some company, or he is just completely fixated (crazy) on blockchain technology (kind of obsession). On various Internet forums one could sometimes (rarely) come across such attempts to conduct an advertising campaign among participants. In any case, it's a bit like spamming.

From my- dare I say it- somewhat experienced POV, which has seen its share of failed projects and outright scams, this reminds me of two things. The first is Project Xanadu, where Ted Nelson insisted on dressing up every data structure with a unique made-up name: Enfilade, Ent, Granfilade (Grand Enfilade), POOMfilade (Permutation Of Order Matrix Enfilade), Spanfilade (Spanning Enfilade), Switcheroo, Switcheroonie, tumbler and so on.

The second is some weird Lisp-based operating system whose name escapes me, which was founded on the belief that if somebody could offer something elegant enough the World would immediately beat a path to his door... and the Hell with whether it could run a browser that allowed people to get at their online banking.

This type of approach can certainly be found in other technical fields. Between the initial idea of ​​solving a problem and its implementation, there is a chasm in which many projects have perished.

The one thing that has, /possibly/ changed is that these days people seem happy with the idea of complex systems embedded in what are effectively VMs inside their browsers, and the potential for them to engage in peer-to-peer operations. From a security and overall robustness POV that is an utter nightmare, and while I do concede that OP is at least aware of GDPR his complete inability to explain himself does nothing to make me think that he has anything to offer us, or that we have anything to offer him within the scope of our limited resources.

When it comes to applications running in browsers, I have a similar opinion as you.

wizzwizz4

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2024, 03:40:01 pm »
If it were ready for use, the sharks of the IT world (Google, Facebook, etc.) would already be promoting it heavily.

They already are! Git is widely promoted by Microsoft (via GitHub) – though Facebook uses Mercurial, and Google's doing its own thing. So-called "blockchain technology" (Merkle trees / hash DAGs, SHA-2, ECDSA) is genuinely useful in certain areas.

I will try to ask the question from the first post again - what do you see as potential obstacles to building Web3 solutions with WebAssembly in the FPC/Lazarus environment? :)

The established fact that so-called Web3 is completely useless. All of the necessary infrastructure is already in place, but nobody has used it in this way because nobody wants to. This hurdle is rather difficult to surmount. Pascal isn't a faddish language, so you shouldn't be surprised that its community is fad-averse. If you want easy marks, go bother the Rust people. If you want to educate yourself, listen to others (ideally including those who speak in a manner you consider disrespectful), and try to ensure you understand the meaning of your own sentences.

But everything was limited to numerical values ​​that represented different cryptocurrencies. Because that's all the blockchain allowed. Today, the word "value" in blockchain technology takes on a completely new meaning. That is why we can boldly talk about Web3 in the full sense of the word. In modern blockchain solutions, value is not only numbers and SC code, but also frontend, backend code and data that are handled by dAPP web3 (messages, texts, files, databases, libraries and AI implementations).

Reading this, I don't think you understand what Web3 is. I'd suggest remedying that before you try to introduce it to others.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2024, 03:51:26 pm by wizzwizz4 »

Blacha

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2024, 03:40:54 pm »
You :-)
MarkMLl
OK, but I care more about organizational and technical reasons, because unfortunately, looking through the prism of Thomas Kuhn's theory, most of us (including you) on this forum are the brakes on the development of modern technologies. :)

MarkMLl

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2024, 03:43:44 pm »
OK, but I care more about organizational and technical reasons, because unfortunately, looking through the prism of Thomas Kuhn's theory, most of us (including you) on this forum are the brakes on the development of modern technologies. :)

Still you, I'm afraid :-)

If you can't explain what you're actually trying to do, and can't- or refuse to- provide succinct answers to specific questions, then the whole thing's a non-starter.

MarkMLl
MT+86 & Turbo Pascal v1 on CCP/M-86, multitasking with LAN & graphics in 128Kb.
Logitech, TopSpeed & FTL Modula-2 on bare metal (Z80, '286 protected mode).
Pet hate: people who boast about the size and sophistication of their computer.
GitHub repositories: https://github.com/MarkMLl?tab=repositories

Blacha

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2024, 04:06:29 pm »
The established fact that so-called Web3 is completely useless. All of the necessary infrastructure is already in place, but nobody has used it in this way because nobody wants to. This hurdle is rather difficult to surmount. Pascal isn't a faddish language, so you shouldn't be surprised that its community is fad-averse. If you want easy marks, go bother the Rust people. If you want to educate yourself, listen to others (ideally including those who speak in a manner you consider disrespectful), and try to ensure you understand the meaning of your own sentences.
Ooo, thank you very much for this statement. :)
The fact is that the term Web3 was (and still is) overused. And your statement refers to these phenomena. That is why I strongly emphasized in the first post - I am not interested in hybrid solutions (the link you sent describes just such). I am interested in pure Web3 in the full sense of the word - 100% code and data on-chain!
An example of Web3 abuse - maintaining a concatenated value on-chain while simultaneously referring to the metadata of this value maintained on a regular centralized, easy-to-attack server. After the power in the server room goes out, we are left with a meaningless token.
Another example of Web3 abuse - a smart contract maintaining on-chain, e.g. text messages, to which we have access via intermediary solutions that are off-chain. And if we add an off-chain frontend to this, it is easy to have problems.
That is why I emphasize again - I am interested in 100% on-chain Web3 solutions. End of story.

P.S. BTW, Rust community is already actively programming in ICP.

wizzwizz4

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2024, 04:41:31 pm »
I am interested in pure Web3 in the full sense of the word - 100% code and data on-chain!

Either there's no such thing, or that site contains plenty of examples. I'm not entirely sure what distinction you're trying to make; and I'm not sure you are, either.

P.S. BTW, Rust community is already actively programming in ICP.

The ICP community is actively programming in Rust. (This is because they're both faddish things: it's not because of the actual merits of either system.) That's not the same thing as the Rust community actively programming in ICP: the most downloaded "Internet Computer Protocol" crate has nothing to do with ICP (even though faddish things tend to use wasteful CI pipelines and badly-written Dockerfiles, heavily inflating their download statistics relative to more practical crates').

I suggest you focus on the merits of your proposal, rather than its alleged popularity. That should start by clearly explaining what your proposal is. What are you suggesting should be "built" in FPC, which might have barriers? This is a four-page thread now, and I'm still no wiser.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2024, 04:49:41 pm by wizzwizz4 »

Blacha

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2024, 05:17:21 pm »
I am interested in pure Web3 in the full sense of the word - 100% code and data on-chain!
Either there's no such thing, or that site contains plenty of examples. I'm not entirely sure what distinction you're trying to make; and I'm not sure you are, either.
To avoid ping-pong statements, please do a small experiment: create a SPA (without backend, smart contract), e.g. using any framework. The whole thing should weigh about 10Mb. And then try to embed it in a chosen blockchain and run it in a browser. Review the costs incurred for such hosting and share your experiences with us. Then you will know what I am really talking about when I use the phrase "pure Web3" or "100% on-chain".
I'm not interested in Rust. I care that Pascal does not fade into oblivion. I care that the FPC Lazarus environment (to which I owe so much) is successfully used to create code in modern applications (including the Web3 blockchain ones).
And I will honestly admit that I have less faith that any of us, active participants in this discussion, will make a breakthrough in this matter. I believe in younger programmers who may read this thread with attention and curiosity, do not engage in verbal jousting, are not afraid to learn new things and may see the potential in what I present here.
If they delve into the issue a little more, they will see what I see - the FCP/Lazarus environment has made such progress that it has a strong basis to try to exist in creating code in the Web3 area.

wizzwizz4

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2024, 05:59:14 pm »
To avoid ping-pong statements, please do a small experiment: create a SPA (without backend, smart contract), e.g. using any framework. The whole thing should weigh about 10Mb. And then try to embed it in a chosen blockchain and run it in a browser. Review the costs incurred for such hosting and share your experiences with us. Then you will know what I am really talking about when I use the phrase "pure Web3" or "100% on-chain".

switching.software is hosted on Codeberg Pages, via a git repository. Its homepage (a SPA, providing a filterable list of popular services) weighs around 180kB (1.5Mbits), though that's excessively wasteful and I was planning to cut it down when I had a moment. It costs the project nothing, since Codeberg is covering the hosting costs (though it's polite to donate to Codeberg if you make much use of their services), and Digitalcourage is covering the domain name. My experience is generally positive, though I got overwhelmed by all the requests for new entries and have stepped down for now.

Something more sophisticated, like a forum site, would require a backend server. There are, as far as I know, no barriers to writing a CGI application in Pascal, and committing its source code to a git "blockchain" for deployment. You can even use git to store whatever data; though you have to make sure the file format is appropriate for the diffing algorithm if you want to use it as a "decentralised source of truth" or whatever.

If this doesn't meet your definition of "Web3", then please explain what you mean, and how it solves a real problem that actual people have.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2024, 06:28:19 pm by wizzwizz4 »

Blacha

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2024, 07:38:06 pm »
The project looks really cool. Congratulations!
Having habits from the 90s, I appreciate the effort to minimize the size of the code. :)

The page you presented is a great example of Web1 (all data comes from the server, and the application itself does not interact with the user). You don't have to worry about validating the entered data, because you do it manually. If you introduced the possibility of interaction with the user in the service (e.g. the possibility of entering an opinion, rating or comments), it would be a representative of the Web2 generation. But then the matter gets a bit more complicated, because you have to take care of the security of the service (data validation, http headers, open ports, patching the software that supports the service and many, many others). The probability of potential hacking increases. The matter gets even more complicated if you run the service not for hobby purposes, but, for example, for the needs of a medical entity. And let's assume that this entity deals with psychiatric therapies and treatment. And let's add, for spice, that 20% of the patients are people from a nearby estate of lawyers and very wealthy people. And then it stops being funny. In my opinion, every data requires the utmost care in its protection, so taking care of it within the Web2 solutions took me a really long time, especially since we maintained our own servers for such a service. But I survived.

Let's start in order:
  • Decentralization - it's great that you've come to an agreement with a hosting and domain name provider, but imagine that at some point you get information that, for example, their business is going bankrupt or has a failure of the main and emergency power supply at the same time (there are cases when someone does not check the installation surge protectors), a serious hack into the system, etc. Your service ceases to exist (at least for some time).
    In Web3 100% on-chain, such a situation does not exist.
  • The principle of necessary knowledge - during a coffee break, hosting service providers' technicians read the medical records of the patients of the medical entity stored on the servers. Just kidding! They are so swamped with work that they do not have time. But they can do it.
    In Web3 100% on-chain, such a situation does not exist. You and only you regulate the access rights to the data. There are no intermediaries or snoopers! The data is natively encrypted, and the consensus mechanism guards, among other things, the access rights to this data.
  • Exclusive rights to value - let's assume that you have written a great programming library, a piece of code, etc. If you want to distribute this piece of code, you create a repository, make it public, describe it with a license, or create an API through which there is access to the functionality of your code. A lot of work and guarding the space.
    In Web3 100% on-chain, such a situation does not exist. Of course, you can make the code repository public (and it is done), but why not embed this code in a blockchain canister and make its API available to other canisters? If the original Tetris code had been placed in Web3, Alexey Pajitnov could be in a completely different reality today.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2024, 08:17:57 pm by Blacha »

Blacha

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2024, 11:30:51 pm »
Still on the subject of decentralization...
I will quote a fragment of the article (The Disappearance of an Internet Domain):
"Whatever happens, the warning for future tech founders is clear: Be careful when picking your top-level domain. Physical history is never as separate from our digital future as we like to think."
I recommend this article. It makes you think...

wizzwizz4

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Re: FPC on Web3
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2024, 01:10:59 am »
  • Everyone who's cloned the repo still has it, even if the world ends. "On-chain" systems rely on some DHT remaining accessible, which it isn't if your ISP fails. Single "decentralised" point of failure, versus git's truly distributed nature. Distributed > decentralised.
  • That is not how computers work. Of course others can observe your "Web3" traffic! How else do you request pages? Even Tor isn't fully private (though it's substantially better than most systems).
  • This is also not how computers work. If the code can be executed, it can be read, so it can be copied. If it can't be copied, it can't be read. DRM/TPM is a legal fiction, not something that actually exists / can exist.
  • The number of torrents with no seeds is in the millions. The number of TLDs that have shut down can be counted on the fingers of one average human hand. (Four, plus oz. which was moved to oz.au. rather than fully removed.) I'm not aware of any gTLDs ever closing. What makes you think any particular "Web3" thing will outlast the internet's basic critical infrastructure?

What you're describing cannot be achieved in Pascal, because it cannot be achieved. Either you misunderstand what "Web3" is, or "Web3" is vapourware.

The matter gets even more complicated if you run the service not for hobby purposes, but, for example, for the needs of a medical entity.

This is the textbook example of when not to use anything resembling a blockchain: you need repudiability, among other things. (You wouldn't want to store this data in git.) Please, learn what this stuff actually is before you try to use it.

 

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