FPC on Web3

[Warfley]

I REALLY like these assumptions. Apart from the fact that they were created in 2021 (when Internet Identity was launched on ICP), in my opinion they do not eliminate blockchain as a trusted identity medium. On the contrary - they take into account the role of the distributed ledger and suggest its deeper analysis.

I mean obviously they can't say that it's a complete failure. You can't categorically rule out technologies as a governmental agency. But this is as harsh of a critizism as they could have given.
I know the colleagues who wrote that document personally, and trust me, thats their way of saying: Don't use it as a trust anchor for eID means.

Also you should know the context of this publication, the german government had just published a digital identity wallet based on anoncreds and hyperledger indy. This solution failed spectecularly. It was launched 2 days before the election and was taken down 1 day before said election due security and privacy issues. And the main reason behind this was a missing trust infrastructure, in that anyone could claim to be any service and read out your identity data, because there was no acceditation by some Certificate Authority, as you have in a PKI scheme. So I could pretend to be a Bank and the only way for the user to figure that stuff out would have been to verify the DID, which is just a random identifier.

This is why this document specifically states that you need an additional trust infrastructure like a PKI on top of blockchain. Blockchain can at best be used as a reliable data storage, but it fails as a trust anchor.
This is how the eIDAS Pilot projects like DC4EU which works together with EBSI to utilize Blockchain are doing it. They basically have all their hierachical and centralized trust structures, but use the chain as a storage for meta information like schemas and so on.

As I already said, you can do it, there is nothing about Blockchain that means you can't build solutions with it. That said these solutions do not provide any benefit over conventional solutions.

There have been interesting developments originating from the Blockchain world. For example because Blockchains are always pseudonomous, and never anonymous, this is a massive privacy leak. So AnonCreds was developed which utilizes ZKP schemes based on CL signatures, to prove ownership over a credential without revealing your signatures or keys (which are correlatable).
And while AnonCreds has a whole set of problems (performance, unprovable security assumptions, etc.) from that there spread more development like BBS+. Which today is mostly used without blockchain, and instead is used for hierachical PKI based structures again.
So to solve a problem of Blockchain technology, something new was developed which now is very useful outside of blockchain.

You may have access to the publications mentioned in the document:
Federal Office for Information Security (BSI), Blockchain sicher gestalten – Eckpunkte des BSI, Bonn,
2018 (in German) and Federal Office for Information Security (BSI), Towards Secure Blockchains.
Concepts, Requirements, Assessment, Bonn, 2019 ?

These are old documents (2018, 2019), but I would be happy to read them. Unless there is something newer, then please.

The BSI is a german governmental agency, so a lot of publications are only in german, and if there are english versions they are hard to find. What you need to do is go to the main page, on the top click on "english" and then use the search function. Searching for blockchain yields a few results, from 2018-2021

[Joanna]

When I first read Don Tapscott's book about Blockchains, a few years ago, I was genuinely excited about this emerging technology. Since then, with the emergence of Bitcoin and all of the other related phenomena, and the profusion of self-appointed experts, who talk a lot, but ultimately say little, I am forced to conclude that "Bollockchains" have become a victim of their own hype 

It sort of seems like the online equivalent of a used car salesman 

[Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno]

Hey Y'all,

It was @bogen85 that pointed me out to this discussion. Probably because I'm involved in many cryptocoin projects, or maybe just because it was a strange thread.
After taking the time to read all 8 pages, at the time I post this, filtering out the Joanna noise, one thing was made clear to me: At the very mention of the word blockchain, everyone cringes and stops reading/listening.

This is quite understandable. For the past 15 years or so, the only thing that anyone has heard about being implemented on top of blockchains has been cryptocurrencies.
This is kinda compounded when about 99.9% of any explanation about what a blockchain is starts with: It's a ledger...
And this could not be further from the truth!!!

In reality, a blockchain is just a database, is just a database. Yes, technically it's a container of data, any data.
What makes people go numb is the fact that they only have heard of cryptocurrencies being done in it.
And if everyone could actually get past over that, then we could have a better discussion on the subject.

While I've been in the cryptocurrency environment for quite a while, both the terms Web3 and dApps are still a bit fuzzy in the middle, never mind the edges.
That is mainly my own fault for not having had the interest or the will to actually dig a bit more in to them.
But I do think that what they are trying to do is to use the fact that a blockchain is a write once, read many database, that can contain a lot more than just a ledger and attempt to create a decentralised way of making data or knowledge available!!

And if this is the case, then I'm of the opinion that this is as on topic as any discussion that the subject is a database. Sure, not an RDBMS kinda thing, but heck, even NoSQL is not off topic here.

The OP has mentioned ICP quite a number of times. And this is something completely new to me. But my curiosity is now peaked.
Even with the most basic and muddled understanding of Web3( not dApps ), I was already seeing a bit of what could be done.
Also the OP has mentioned many times that the technology behind the infra needed to host them is not as simple as the very easy to implement Client/Server models we're used to.
This also peaks my curiosity, since my only interest in anything blockchain-y or cryptocoin-y is in how these things work, not the financial or cryptobro nature of it all.
The financial and cryptobro nature of it all is just the noise I have to endure when entering the realm.

Now, the fact that I haven't dove into ICP, and I'm just forming a wishful thinking about it, may not be an accurate perception of what it is.
To me, right now, the SETI@home or Fold@home models of distributing a binary so that anyone that participates will enhance the entire network, kinda comes to mind.
But kinda in reverse, since the nodes would be the ones running or hosting these things.
From my very basic and muddled understanding, what I've been able to suss out is that we would not need to have the current client/server model, but something more akin to P2P, where all nodes can serve as DNS and web page suppliers.
This for me is really interesting due to the decentralisation nature of it all. But, alas, I'm not that versed in it all to fathom what is the cost, or difficulty, of such a new infra.

One thing I must agree: The OP does use a lot of marketing lingo and does a lot of beating around the bushes, that's for sure.

One of the things I've noticed is that @Warfley does have a lot of knowledge about the privacy issues of a publicly accessible blockchain.
He points out a lot of real life cases that would never work when said publicly accessible blockchain is used to host very private and confidential data.
He also makes me think that I'm in a bit of an Utopia haze when I think about the decentralisation of the Web. It's not as simple as just that, the decentralisation.
Which makes me conclude that we're in a bit of lesser evil kinda situation right now with our current web infra.

The only way I can see this thing working is if we make the entirety of the internet services work on top of a blockchain.
This is the only way that would avoid getting off-chain for anything, cuz... Heck, now the entirety of the internet IS the blockchain.
I'll have to ponder a bit more on this, cuz at a first glance, it's just having another layer of abstraction, but without that many advantages or added value, only for the sake of it.

My 2c, for whatever it's worth.

Cheers,
Gus

[MarkMLl]

This is quite understandable. For the past 15 years or so, the only thing that anyone has heard about being implemented on top of blockchains has been cryptocurrencies.

In fairness, IBM at one point made a big thing about embracing the blockchain... Google turns up quite a lot, including reports that the business unit turned out to be a disappointment.

MarkMLl

[Blacha]

One thing I must agree: The OP does use a lot of marketing lingo and does a lot of beating around the bushes, that's for sure.

You're right. I realize that this may be the case, but:

• Discussing this topic has taught me a certain rule - talking to people who are both professional experts in the subject and people who have never dealt with it. I always try to balance the message. Dale may be insufficient in content for some, and for others a good start to understanding something unknown and cool;
• Many years of experience as a lecturer have taught me not to serve everything to the audience on a plate. I wanted my statements to inspire interest in the subject, so it could really look like a marketing message. I think that over time this topic will break through phobias and stereotypes, so it will be possible to gently move from general to specific;
• It was not without reason that I wrote that I value both the participants of this discussion and... potential readers! It is for them that the message should be simple and encouraging.

I am not expressing my opinion on the advantages of Web3 solely on the basis of materials I have heard, read or watched on the Internet. I program in FPC/Lazarus, I program for the ICP environment (motoko, JS), I maintain my own business infrastructure of cloud services, so my conclusions are the result of my involvement in all practical areas of my activity.

[Blacha]

One more observation - when familiarizing yourself with the topic, I suggest paying attention to the time frame. Two years in this technology is light years, and the entire boom is driven by the bitcoin halving cycle (4 years). Also note that there is a lot of money involved, which causes various media campaigns by various interest groups (from delight to howling, there are many examples of hypocrisy). There is one area that successfully uses this technology not only as a financial product, but also in the technical sense of the word. And where banks have their interests, there... fill in the rest yourself.

Technology, technology and once again technology in the service of man - this is the real reason why it is worth dealing with blockchain.

[MarkMLl]

filtering out the Joanna noise,

If only this forum had a filter to remove the drivel of hateful misogynists

Why is it impossible to add Gustavo to my ignore list? He is harassing me.

Shut up Joanna.

MarkMLl

[Blacha]

I think that in the context of the topic discussed here, this information about the rules for writing and compiling code for WebAssemply taking into account various CDKs (Canister Development Kits) for ICP purposes may be interesting for some.

[Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno]

Hey Mark,

This is quite understandable. For the past 15 years or so, the only thing that anyone has heard about being implemented on top of blockchains has been cryptocurrencies.

In fairness, IBM at one point made a big thing about embracing the blockchain... Google turns up quite a lot, including reports that the business unit turned out to be a disappointment.

MarkMLl

Exactly!! Those are big names, both in the tech universe and in the layperson's universe.

Then there's all the news cycles about countries in Latin America ( sorry, my Swiss Cheese memory fails me here on which one was it ) going all in with BitCoin.
Not to mention some more news cycles spent on reporting the various hacks and fraud committed by those in the BitCoin universe.

This all gives the layperson a lot of exposure on the coin side of blockchains, but not so much on the aspect that a blockchain is nothing more than a write once, read many database.

Cheers,
Gus

[Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno]

Dearest, dearest Joanna,

filtering out the Joanna noise,

If only this forum had a filter to remove the drivel of hateful misogynists

Why is it impossible to add Gustavo to my ignore list? He is harassing me.

Shut up Joanna.

MarkMLl

I don't think I could add anything of much significance after Mark's response to you, so I'll just say: What he said!!

Cheers,
Gus

[egsuh]

Once I tried to write a smart contract with Solidity within Ethereum network. The language structure of Solidity is very similar to that of Pascal. So, I thought it would be very good if I could write smart contracts in Pascal which can run on a block chain network (whether it is Ethereum or whatever).  Am I understanding something very wrong? Anyway very interesting contents.

[MarkMLl]

Exactly!! Those are big names, both in the tech universe and in the layperson's universe.

Actually, I meant that Google turned up much about IBM's effort, including that IBM was having considerable difficulty converting the hype into any sort of sellable product.

MarkMLl

[Blacha]

As part of the dose of knowledge, we throw another pebble into the garden. Google article from October 27, 2022 announcing the launch of infrastructure supporting the development of Web3 (BTW, I wonder why this announcement coincided with the ICP protocol reaching maturity?).
And by the way - please check out the names behind the DFINITY foundation (creator of ICP). Many connections with Google, Facebook, IBM, etc.

[Blacha]

Once I tried to write a smart contract with Solidity within Ethereum network. The language structure of Solidity is very similar to that of Pascal. So, I thought it would be very good if I could write smart contracts in Pascal which can run on a block chain network (whether it is Ethereum or whatever).  Am I understanding something very wrong? Anyway very interesting contents.

You are right.
If we look at the typical structure of an ICP project, it is generally not a big challenge for FPC/Lazarus (apart from the backend code, which requires special handling of data).

[Joanna]

Dearest, dearest Joanna,

filtering out the Joanna noise,

If only this forum had a filter to remove the drivel of hateful misogynists

Why is it impossible to add Gustavo to my ignore list? He is harassing me.

Shut up Joanna.

MarkMLl

I don't think I could add anything of much significance after Mark's response to you, so I'll just say: What he said!!

Cheers,
Gus

Hi sweetie, Thanks for coming to Irc to visit me    I heard that you got stuck in my troll trap ... I’m so sorry