I give up. No IDEs can satisfy me.

[cdbc]

Hiho
Stop right there Joanna...

TABLES_INFO.GET_INFO Is a function that returns a class.

and then you proceed to use it like this:

Code: Pascal  [Select][+][-]

1.  FUNCTION TBASIC_COL_FILTER.SQL_SEGMENT( CONST COLUMN_NAME: SHORTSTRING):SHORTSTRING;
2.  BEGIN // The procedure becomes empty if I press enter here and it takes two undo to restore it.
3. /// I don't think you can use a class in a CASE statement ///
4.  CASE TABLES_INFO.GET_INFO(TABLENAME) // <--- HERE
5. END;
6.  

I'm of the impression that you cannot use a class in a case statement, but ofc I might be wrong...
Could it be that the codetools are complaining about that?!?
Regards Benny
edit: typo

[Joanna]

Hi cdbc yes I’m aware that the code is junk that I happened to be editing..

Martin
I think that I have something that automatically indents after the begin when I create a begin end block it always indents.

I tested it further and it seems that the “case” keyword causes the problem.
If the case is not more indented than the begin it empties the procedure.

I can’t make bug report because I’m not using latest Lazarus client.
Can anyone else test it?

[cdbc]

Hi
Hang on, I've just got the new 3.4 installed, this afternoon, I _ordered_ it just 2 weeks ago and now it's in our Linux distribution's repository, that's nice and quick 
I'll be back...

...and I'm back;
Right you are Joanna, laz actually closes said method with an end and then creates a new one below it, which starts with "CASE" instead of "Procedure"... 
Thats's funny 
See the attachment...

Regards Benny

[VisualLab]

Personally, I believe that too many programmers are giving way too much importance to looks and way to little to function and _useful_ features (not piles of useless ones... which has become typical.)

I also personally believe that too many developers place too much importance on appearance and too little on functionality and _useful_ features.

Personally, I dislike docked windows.  It leads to a very inefficient use of screen space.  Your screenshot shows you get 52 lines in your editor window, AFAIC, that's a deal breaker (I got 50 lines back in the days of MS-DOS).  I get 78 lines on a 1920x1200 monitor (a bit "taller" than the standard 1080 but not much.)

Personally, I love docked windows. It makes for very efficient use of screen space. Especially when I'm working on a 3840 x 2160 pixel screen and have many programs running. I can spread them all over the screen and see them at the same time. I don't have to move and arrange each of the Lazarus windows because they're always docked in the same place. I work in a similar way with Delphi, NetBeans, and Visual Studio.

As far as caret-past-eol, I don't recall what the default behavior is but, any editor that does not allow caret-past-eol is just another notepad, utterly useless AFAIC.

As for "caret-past-eol", I agree with the previous speaker that any editor that does not allow "caret-past-eol" is just another notepad, completely useless. I have been using this functionality since the donor, it helps me a lot in my work.

As far as colors go, I think that's much too personal to say anything about them.  I prefer dark (solid black background... gives high contrast = less visual effort) and contributed my color scheme (because it was requested)

As for colors, the current default configuration is the best. I can't stand the idiotic fad of so-called "dark themes". They are hard to work with. It annoyed me even in the MD-DOS days (but then they weren't themes, they were a necessity). I still prefer light themes, because then my eyes don't get tired.

I like the sparse line numbers, less clutter.  I don't like clutter.  I couldn't code 5 minutes with the settings you have.  I'm not saying they are wrong but they are a universe apart from what I am comfortable with. 

I agree with the previous speaker on this. I also don't like mess.

For the most part I use two windows: the editor window (often two of them) and the watches window.  The rest of the windows lazarus offers get a second or two of attention every once in a while (such as the messages window.)

I use many Lazarus windows (areas). I use the source code editor the most. But I also use the graphical form editor, object inspector, project inspector, debug window intensively. The only thing that I think could be changed is to separate the component viewport (visible at the top of the object inspector) from the property and event grids of the selected component.

Lazarus is _functional_, that's what an IDE should be.

Amen

[Joanna]

Hi
Hang on, I've just got the new 3.4 installed, this afternoon, I _ordered_ it just 2 weeks ago and now it's in or Linux distribution's repository, that's nice and quick 
I'll be back...

...and I'm back;
Right you are Joanna, laz actually closes said method with an end and then creates a new one below it, which starts with "CASE" instead of "Procedure"... 
Thats's funny 
See the attachment...

Regards Benny

Mine does that too, I hadn’t noticed where the procedure text had gone because I didn’t scroll down on my small screen. So it inserts a space and Then closes with an end as if it’s creating a new begin..end block. So that’s why it takes two undo to get rid of space and extra end.
@martin @marco we found a bug in Lazarus ide.

Can someone report the bug please? They don’t like people using old ide over there.

[dbannon]

On Khrys's list -

• The floating/undocked windows. This is a matter of taste, and statistically floating window layouts are simply uncommon.

• D: Maybe uncommon but absolutely essential on a smaller screen. I do most of my work on a 1900x1200 laptop, anchored would leave the important editing window unusable.

• The default color themes. Light themes have become unpopular,

• D: No, I disagree, speaking to my users, most prefer the lighter colour schemes, but I find Dark Theme users more vocal on the topic.

• The default IDE theme itself. With the currently ongoing obsession about dark themes, a low-friction way of switching to one is essential.

• D: possibly useful, certainly not essential !

• The caret-past-EOL behaviour. My honest first impression was that this must be a bug in one of the most basic text editor interactions.

• D: Would certainly be a bug in a Word Processor but Lazarus is not a Word Processor, it is essential !

• The sparse line numbers. Again, not the popular option.

• D: Makes for quick reading when scanning down a page, I like it.

Sorry Khys, I dispute every point.  I don't think we'd come to blows about the sparse line numbers but I do prefer the Lazarus approach. The rest are really important to me.

Whats really happening here is Lazarus is developed by Lazarus users with feedback from Lazarus users. The emphasis is on usability, not what other people are doing !

Davo

[ASBzone]

Maybe first ask the question should we address this?

Possibly. Anything that makes it easier for people to learn about how to change the options to suit their preferences is probably a decent use of effort (relatively speaking).

I don't generally care about defaults, so long as I can change the configuration and do so in a reasonably simple way.  And more kudos if my changes can easily be saved and applied, or otherwise survive updates.

I am deliberately speaking in generalities, and not implying that Lazarus is good or deficient in any or all of these areas.  I'm just answering Marcov at a high level, in terms of what might be a useful, longer-term consideration in this discussion.

Matters of taste and aesthetics are difficult to get consensus on, and I can honestly say that in the past quarter century, there have been very, very few times when some software developer changed UI-related defaults, and I was please with them.  And, sadly, most of those times involve them changing something back from a more disastrous change in the just-prior version.

I know that I like consistency in my interfaces, and I get that not everyone is like that.  But as long as the tool is functional, and offers me quite a bit of flexibility in configuration, and the ability to keep/maintain those tweaks, I am happy, and willing to endure a lot of "progress."

(I just upgraded Audacity to v3.6.x the other day, and I hate the tweaks to the UI, but let me not start problems here... 🤣)

[Khrys]

Sorry Khys, I dispute every point.

I can't stand the idiotic fad of so-called "dark themes".

Quoting my own post:

We could spend all day debating personal preferences, but that's beside the point

Again, what I meant to do was to concretize some of the vague complaints the creator of this thread had - mostly regarding the comparison with JetBrains IDEs and VSCode (the "mainstream"). It's a matter of fact that in the examples I gave, Lazarus is the one that deviates from the norm. What merit these differences have is irrelevant: they are, in the most literal sense (!), simply not popular.

Not bending over backwards in an attempt to please everyone is a very respectable stance. It's true that the "masses" will never be satisfied. But unfortunately I feel like the refusal to change that's evident in this thread kinda proves the OP's point that Lazarus  "has an outdated feeling". "Why fix it if it ain't broken" is a good motto, but in an evolving environment even just standing still means falling behind.

[440bx]

But unfortunately I feel like the refusal to change that's evident in this thread kinda proves the OP's point that Lazarus  "has an outdated feeling". "Why fix it if it ain't broken" is a good motto, but in an evolving environment even just standing still means falling behind.

Not necessarily. 

Two examples come to mind, back in 2000/2001 there was SoftICE, a system debugger which ran on MS-DOS, Win9x and WinXP.  Today there is nothing like it.  Wdndbg is functionally similar but, it certainly isn't a hotkey away at all times and, it certainly doesn't understand Delphi's debugging symbols (SoftICE did.)  Today, with a lot of work, you can replicate SoftICE's functionality but, the point is: the loss of productivity is _brutal_, nothing short of _brutal_.    Wndbg Preview edition (available on Win10 and possibly Win11) is a very modern looking debugger but, it is nowhere near the convenience of SoftICE (very modern and very substantial loss of productivity but, it has to be said, it is a very powerful debugger and it knows a lot more about Windows than meets the eye.)

The other example that comes to mind is editing.  I've probably tried every editor ever coded and for the great majority of them my reaction is: "you call this an editor ???... you've got to be kidding".    I could probably type 200 lines worth of facts noting how brutally superior ME is to anything available today.  Unfortunately, even though it is _vastly_ superior to anything available today, it is now a defunct product.  Since I mentioned I could type 200 lines worth of facts, I'll mention one: Multi-Edit is coded in an interpreted language that resembles C (the DOS version used a language that resembled Pascal), what's important is this: the executable is an editing engine controlled using that language.  When I didn't like something in the editor or simply wanted to add a feature, I just coded it and "compiled" it (byte code for the engine), in most cases, I didn't even have to restart the editor.   Scrolling up/down/left/right is _at least_ 3 times faster than in any other editor.   The undo facility is without equal.  In spite of being interpreted (well.. byte code actually... still... not machine code), it is _fast_, a lot faster and more responsive than any other editor I've tried (and as I said, the few editors I haven't tried are probably used by a lost tribe in an unexplored area of Africa.)

Bottom line is: while my editor doesn't have a lot of "fluff" features the current crop of "editors" (please note the quotes) provide, it is a vastly superior editing engine and, as far as features, if there is a feature I want bad enough I can code it myself and it will become a native part of the editor in short order.  One exception to that last sentence: I like some of the features codetools provides in Lazarus and a codetools like facility could be added to ME but, that's too much work considering the feature is available in Lazarus.  Solution: use both editors.

Honestly, since 2001, I think programming environments have gone substantially _backwards_.    They may look very modern but, in my eyes, they look painfully useless in the common case and barely bearable in the best case.

I don't do any substantial amount of editing in Lazarus but, I consider it to be usable for adding/modifying a few lines (and that's very high praise.)

"Modern" doesn't mean it's good.  In most cases "modern" seems to be a synonym for eye candy with functional value that approximates the nutritional value of actual candy.

[MarkMLl]

Two examples come to mind, back in 2000/2001 there was SoftICE, ... brutally superior ME is to anything available today.

So the bottom line appears to be that only hardcore users of a product (i.e. at more about 25% of the purchasers) use and appreciate the areas in which it stands head and shoulders above the competition, and that they aren't sufficient to keep it commercially afloat.

Considering that SoftICE was very much a DOS/Windows product and that ME was similarly PC-oriented, I wonder whether there are equivalent unix debuggers and whether Eclipse could be configured to match ME's competence?

And I wonder whether there's anything that can be done to promote the integrated designer/debugger that Delphi/Lazarus offer, assuming that by now well over 75% of developers are quite simply unaware of such things?

MarkMLl

[dseligo]

As I see it, two most prominent features often requested to make Lazarus more 'modern' are one window (anchordocking) and dark mode.
There are probably many current users who already uses one or both of those.

So if Lazarus installation offers choice to turn on or off anchordocking and on or off dark mode, it would satisfy most people, IMHO.
Another thing to make it easy for new users is 'buttons' easily found to turn on/off those features after Lazarus is installed.

[440bx]

I wonder whether there are equivalent unix debuggers

I am not particularly well informed when it comes to unix or unix-like O/S but, I seriously doubt there is anything available on those that remotely matches SoftICE.  The reason I say that is because SoftICE was the premier hacking/cracking tool.  It is/was truly genuinely famous.  If there was anything remotely like it available on a flavor of unix, I believe it would be famous too.

and whether Eclipse could be configured to match ME's competence?

I doubt it.  What makes ME so special is that it isn't really an editor, it is an engine that provides text editing primitives and a language to manipulate them.  Its strength lie in the engine and its ability to compile its language into fast byte code.  The ME engine is used to implement a text editor but, I think it could probably be used to write utilities that run in the editor (a bit like java/javascript apps that run in the browser... except ME is vastly faster and more efficient.)

And I wonder whether there's anything that can be done to promote the integrated designer/debugger that Delphi/Lazarus offer, assuming that by now well over 75% of developers are quite simply unaware of such things?

I don't know what steps can be made to promote the Lazarus' integrated debugger (FpDebug.) By now, I completely agree that it has become a notable asset in Lazarus.  In some areas I prefer it over the debugger in Visual Studio which I consider to be really, really good. The only feature that keeps me using the VS debugger is assembly debugging (of course, other than the availability of some libraries in C only.)

As I see it, two most prominent features often requested to make Lazarus more 'modern' are one window (anchordocking) and dark mode.
There are probably many current users who already uses one or both of those.

So if Lazarus installation offers choice to turn on or off anchordocking and on or off dark mode, it would satisfy most people, IMHO.
Another thing to make it easy for new users is 'buttons' easily found to turn on/off those features after Lazarus is installed.

One possibility that comes to mind is to have a "first run" type of utility help the user configure Lazarus by means of a "wizard" that offers options such as anchor docking, dark mode (or some of the color schemes available for download) and, possibly other settings.

Just a thought.

[Martin_fr]

What makes ME so special is that it isn't really an editor, it is an engine that provides text editing primitives and a language to manipulate them.  Its strength lie in the engine and its ability to compile its language into fast byte code.

I can't help it, but that sounds like Emacs.

[Khrys]

One possibility that comes to mind is to have a "first run" type of utility help the user configure Lazarus by means of a "wizard" that offers options such as anchor docking, dark mode (or some of the color schemes available for download) and, possibly other settings.

For comparison, this window is the first thing the user sees after installing IntelliJ IDEA (apart from license & telemetry agreement popups):

[TRon]

One possibility that comes to mind is to have a "first run" type of utility help the user configure Lazarus by means of a "wizard" that offers options such as anchor docking, dark mode (or some of the color schemes available for download) and, possibly other settings.

For comparison, this window is the first thing the user sees after installing IntelliJ IDEA (apart from license & telemetry agreement popups):

I would settle for being able to change the configuration without the need to open or create a project first.

But as was being told, that is a well-though design decision that will not be changed. Having some sort of a startup-wizard (which Lazarus already has) will imho contradict that decision.