I give up. No IDEs can satisfy me.

[LV]

and appreciate what is there.

Ach, so, yes. What can we argue about forever? Politics, cars, football, programming languages, IDEs – all that stuff. Plus, arguments like "modern" vs "old-fashioned", "cool" vs "boring" can sometimes be more important than actual functionality, reliability, and stability.

[hcoenen]

Silvercoder70,
You want to take away my nice outdated yellow and blue?   

I totally agree with you on all points as i do with LV.
A bit of appreciation of what we have does no harm 

[Martin_fr]

A bit of appreciation of what we have does no harm 

Well, a bit of disappointment can be even better. If the person acts on it. Check what might be accepted, and create a patch.

[Scoops]

Personally I like the IDE as it is, no slow loading eye candy, the tools and menu items as needed,
easy package manager, no registration, free, no need to download 5 giga of useless add-ons
and frameworks I will never use. Etc etc. In the end its a tool to design and build whatever I want
in whatever style I want its not the end result.

“You can please some of the people all of the time,
you can please all of the people some of the time,
but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.

― John Lydgate

[hcoenen]

Martin_fr,

Agree to some level. Some people might not have the skillset (yet) to directly patch the stuff they have issues with. I'm just talking for myself if i say that my level of knowledge is just enough to do very basic and simple things (and probably some things in very horrible ways) for myself.
When presented with ide issues i have basically two ways to go.

- Accept it for the time being and hope it'll be fixed in time, if not, accept that as fact.

- File a bug report and be as detailed as i can be with the level of knowledge i have. After i made sure it really is an ide issue. This does indeed require action. I encountered some bugs but they were already reported. i waited it out, they got fixed.

I also find these forums are a pretty good source of information, been lurking around long enough.

[VisualLab]

Incidentally, the decision-makers at Microchip probably had a similar opinion, because they chose this IDE as the basis for their MPLAB IDE X,

I spend quite a lot of time in MPLAB X, but 9 times out of 10, if I try to shut down, I get a prompt that threads are still running and if I want to terminate them, usually update threads, sometimes parsing threads. After nearly a decade of use they can't seem to fix that.

I seen MPLAB die when trying to run program in debug mode.

I also encountered similar observations about MPLAB X IDE on forums devoted to programming Microchip microcontrollers. I only use this IDE for hobby purposes. In any case, it's a sluggish IDE. You can feel the "big and bloated bulk" of Java in it.

it's paucity of documentation. With Rust- in particular- in the ascendant, if we could just say "another language?

Sure we can handle that...

"if you build it, they will come" logic, but that nearly never works out, in the sense that there get more developer hours back than the time put in.

I bet that after creating an IDE for Rust, no one will thank you or appreciate it. There would rather be a whole litany of complaints that this is done badly, that something is missing...

So I also think that it is a waste of time to spend time on projects for users of other languages. It is better to spend it on libraries or Lazarus. If Rust lovers really need an IDE, they will create one. And their dedicated effort and time will result in: (1) their own experience, (2) appreciation of what they have achieved, (3) understanding how much work such a project requires.

In some respects, you can feel sorry for the newer generations of programmers: 

I feel sorry for them...<cut>

And I don't feel sorry for them at all. There have always been a lot of morons and they have always caused a lot of harm. That is why idiots must be fought (but with civilized methods, e.g. cunning).

Add in the extensions to VSCode and it slows down.

Which is obvious, because it's a browser that displays HTML files "stuffed" with a huge amount of JS scripts. A similar effect is observed on websites where a lot of scripts have been "stuffed".

[LV]

If Rust lovers really need an IDE, they will create one.

https://www.jetbrains.com/rust/

[Joanna]

I don’t want lazarus “modernized” whatever that means ,I like it the way it is. Nobody should even take the demands of people who don’t use pascal seriously. It’s kind of childish the way non pascal users say I’m not going to use fpc until ____________! There was one troll whe even demanded that fpc compile with a c compiler.

Except that the OT didn't actually say that. (And it shouldn't require any deeper language skills to see that).

And the regrets he voiced are those of many, and those many should not be simply dismissed. Nor would the fulfilment of those desires mean to force others to use any new additions.

And it is somewhat droll to bring up the entirely unrelated actions of some random troll, when the topic is about entirely valid points.

I guess by this point it is well known that I only Value the opinions about Lazarus from people Who are actually using fpc and Lazarus. I have seen no evidence that the original poster even uses Lazarus or pascal and I question his motives.

It is not prudent to accept “seemingly reasonable advice” from random busybodies. If you do, Your precious project could very well  end up like this.  https://fablesofaesop.com/the-man-the-boy-and-the-donkey.html

[MarkMLl]

"if you build it, they will come" logic, but that nearly never works out, in the sense that there get more developer hours back than the time put in.

I bet that after creating an IDE for Rust, no one will thank you or appreciate it. There would rather be a whole litany of complaints that this is done badly, that something is missing...

My point- or at least the point that I hoped to get across- is that with their form-design capability Delphi/Lazarus are substantially ahead of the opposition: I believe that nothing comparable exists for developing Rust code.

It's a bit odd, because my impression was that in the early days- 1990s- there was actually more interest in this sort of thing including at least two fairly well-integrated products (from Borland and Netscape) targeting HTML+Javascript coding. Specifically in the case of those two products, if they failed it was because they strongly encouraged the use of the same companies' enterprise-grade servers, when what the World actually wanted was a fairly painless (and, let's face it, free) way of interacting with the dominant servers of the day (Apache and IIS).

Is it really credible that developers have made an informed decision to ignore the sort of integrated facilities that Delphi/Lazarus offer, or have they done so out of ignorance?

MarkMLl

[MarkMLl]

I guess by this point it is well known that I only Value the opinions about Lazarus from people Who are actually using fpc and Lazarus. I have seen no evidence that the original poster even uses Lazarus or pascal and I question his motives.

I regret to say that that's not the impression that I have formed.

Lazarus IDE is powerful, but it always has an outdated feeling to me. There are people working on Pascal / Free Pascal language plugins on modern IDEs like Jetbrain IDEs or Visual Studio Code, but they are all not perfect. There are plugins to modernize Lazarus like AnchorDocking or IDE Scout etc., but they are also not perfect. Errors can easily happen and crash the IDE with plugins uncontrollably as well. I can deal with Git with just command lines, but some other IDEs provides better view for things like git blame and git merge internally, I ended up sometimes needing to open Lazarus and another IDE / Git Tool at the same time which I feel awkward. In the end, with the dying of Pascal language itself, I had barely hope on any significant support on Lazarus would appear on any other IDEs. Lazarus IDE would be the only option relevant. It's sad.

That hardly reads like the posting of somebody with absolutely no experience in the area. It could very easily be somebody who has more of a presence on the MLs, or who uses Stack Overflow etc. rather than the forum: the fact that he's specifically highlighted a particular IDE package (not installed by default) that I can say from experience is hardly problem-exempt is telling.

MarkMLl

[Martin_fr]

I guess by this point it is well known that I only Value the opinions about Lazarus from people Who are actually using fpc and Lazarus.

I guess you are setup for disappointment then. Because the forum explicitly welcomes people with any kind of interest in FPC, Lazarus, or to some degree just general interest in Pascal.

I have seen no evidence that the original poster even uses Lazarus or pascal and I question his motives.

MarkMLI beat me to it, but:
The post, and the knowledge revealed in it pretty much say that they has used the Lazarus IDE. (At the very least "used" as in "checked it out" / "tried what it offers").
So by your own words, you should Value their opinion.

And I fully expect you to value my word on this. After all, you know very well that I do use Lazarus and FPC. And use it quite a lot, that is.

[MarkMLl]

And I fully expect you to value my word on this. After all, you know very well that I do use Lazarus and FPC. And use it quite a lot, that is.

Now now, Martin. I'm sure that Joanna would notice if the next version of the IDE started inserting random obscenities into her procedure names, or occasionally changed a character to a Unicode lookalike ;-)

MarkMLl

[Joanna]

The post, and the knowledge revealed in it pretty much say that they has used the Lazarus IDE. (At the very least "used" as in "checked it out" / "tried what it offers").
So by your own words, you should Value their opinion.

By using fpc I mean writing serious programs in fpc. Looking for excuses to not use Lazarus Is not using Lazarus for its intended purpose. I have met plenty of these types of people who do nothing but nitpick for flaws so they can say nasty things about the project. This is offensive on so many levels. It is not like they are funding fpc development are they?? Since by his own admission the op is not going to use Lazarus because it doesn’t live up to his “high standards” of what an ide should be. His only objective has to be to dissuade others not to use it.

Smear campaigns don’t belong in a support forum For the thing being disparaged in my opinion. People who actually use fpc can accomplish something productive by discussing flaws and how to improve them. People who hate pascal and want it to go away can do no such thing.

Martin you previously implied that I Misinterpret things as insults , it’s not good to misinterpret things however sometimes insults and bad intentions are real and complacency will lead to losing everything. I know that complacency is the path of least resistance but it isn’t always the best idea.

If you want a historical example : native Americans didn’t realize how dangerous the small number European visitors were and look what happened to them.

[Martin_fr]

By using fpc I mean writing serious programs in fpc.

Well, that is your problem then. Don't make it anyone else's. Don't blame anyone for not being in line with your personal ideas.

As I said before, this forum welcomes all people who have an interest of any kind in FPC/Lazarus.

And just to clarify (though that shouldn't be needed, so apologies for stating something such obvious): "in" does not include "against". But "against" is not based on your whim.

And neither is criticism nor disappointment regarded as "against". In fact criticism is a requirement, and without failure of the project would be more likely.

Again, I underline that those words of mine are such that you can value, as I have (and am) used (using) Lazarus/FPC, and doing so in most serious projects, such as the IDE itself, which you can verify. So you can trust my word

[MarkMLl]

Since by his own admission the op is not going to use Lazarus because it doesn’t live up to his “high standards” of what an ide should be.

He didn't say that. He said

I ended up sometimes needing to open Lazarus and another IDE / Git Tool at the same time which I feel awkward.

Attempting to win an argument by misquoting somebody is despicable.

MarkMLl