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Author Topic: Wiki Strategy  (Read 7359 times)

af0815

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« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 09:20:02 am by af0815 »
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Warfley

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Re: Wiki Strategy
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2023, 11:43:27 am »
Quote
Is the article written neutrally
Again, I have written articles on debugging, where I recommend FpDebug. Recommendation is not neutral.
Recommendations are not necessarily non-neutral. For example I often recommend against using GTK2 but I do so because it is EOL, does not receive any security updates anymore, and the usage of which may be liable under laws such as EU Regulation 2019/770. It is a recommendation, but it is based on objective criteria.

But what if not?
Half the IDE help pages are outdated. But better than none. So removing is not an option.
At the very least, it should be marked as such. Either with a note/warning on top of the page, or a fixed div in a corner like with the platform specific articles.

Then for a later step it can be added to a list (forum post, wiki page, wiki category), so someone who has the time and knowledge can update it eventually.

Knowing what you don't know is always the first step.

Though several articles on a subject may exist, if they refer to each other. And briefly explain why both exist.
And if the don't, the solution may be to add this.

E.g.: https://wiki.freepascal.org/SVN_to_GIT_Cheatsheet#Alternative_to_this_Page

When I added these two points, I had this in mind: https://wiki.freepascal.org/unicode_use_cases
This page basically just states "sqlite and firebird require UTF-8 for their file paths", this information can be fully incorporated in one of the "Unicode Support" pages.

Note that there is also quite an overlap between FPC Unicode Support and LCL Unicode Support, so this can be either reduced (e.g. by not having language and FPC specifics in the LCL article), or have a common Unicode Support article and just an FPC and LCL specific article for the specific functions provided by the RTL or LCL.

Quote
Is there an english version of the article
What if not?
One could check the article (google translate should allow getting a general overview what it tries to be) and if it seems valuable, create an english version, if it is covered by other articles, integrated into another article, and if it seems to be of little value, maybe mark it as "deprectaed" or so.

Needs some form of easy to add marker (some template)
Maybe a category so that e.g. a german speaker who wants to help can just go to the category "outdated german" and check where it could be helped.

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For third party packages and tools: Is it clearly marked as such
ok
Quote
For packages and third party tools: Is the License noted
 For third party packages and tools: Is an Author named/linked
 For third party packages and tools: Is there a link for further information
 For third party packages and tools: Is it still actively maintained
if not, the info may still be of interest
Sure, but it should be clearly visible as such. What would maybe be possible, to have a template for third party components, a table or something like that, which shows the basic information. Like Wikipedia has in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTK
  • Original author(s)
  • Developer(s)
  • Initial release
  • Stable release
  • Preview release
  • Repository
  • Written in
  • Operating system
  • Type
  • License
  • Website

Btw, "subjective" doesn't mean it can't be a criteria, at least at some point, eventually.

But, before that it should be refined, and reviewed by a group of different people. Using a good amount of samples from the wiki to write detailed guidelines....
First, the criterias I've put up there was what came to my mind and not fully thought through. That said, I had a few articles in mind that I have found with such problems to base this on. But of course this needs more work than just one guy comming up with them on the spot.

I think this can really benefit, because yeah it's a bit of effort at first, but once it is done, it will archive at least a base level of harmonization.

About the subjectiveness, this is always a spectrum, like there are things which are obviously not adding much value, e.g. https://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/$A is completely unessecary because https://lazarus-ccr.sourceforge.io/fpcdoc/prog/progsu1.html#x8-70001.2.1 exists, and is more thourough and as official documentation also normative (unlike the wiki which is just informative on a best effort basis).
For less obvious cases a peer review may be the best option
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 11:50:50 am by Warfley »

kupferstecher

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Re: Wiki Strategy
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2023, 11:44:27 am »
I remeber I said it in a discussion before: In my opinion the multiple languages are really a problem for the wiki. Searching the wiki is difficult, because the results are cluttered with the same topic for several languages. Also improving sites that have direct translations in several languages is nearly impossible.

For this issue I see 2 solutions, the
first one is to make clear that the different languages are intended to be different (like it is on wikipedia) and that they are not and shall not be one-to-one direct translations. And also to make the search language specific.

The second solution could be to completely seperate the non-english articles into a new multi-language wiki, leaving the english articles as stand alone english wiki. [That english wiki then could also be used as basis for automatic translations. The then seperated multi-language wiki wouldn't be touched by the translations]* and would still be a good basis for regional efforts or for writers prefering a non-english language.

*optional for the future

Regards~
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 11:50:24 am by kupferstecher »

af0815

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Re: Wiki Strategy
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2023, 12:01:32 pm »
The second solution could be to completely seperate the non-english articles into a new multi-language wiki, leaving the english articles as stand alone english wiki. [That english wiki then could also be used as basis for automatic translations. The then seperated multi-language wiki wouldn't be touched by the translations]* and would still be a good basis for regional efforts or for writers prefering a non-english language.
-1

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Andreas

Martin_fr

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Re: Wiki Strategy
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2023, 01:42:51 pm »
But what if not?
Half the IDE help pages are outdated. But better than none. So removing is not an option.
At the very least, it should be marked as such. Either with a note/warning on top of the page, or a fixed div in a corner like with the platform specific articles.

Then for a later step it can be added to a list (forum post, wiki page, wiki category), so someone who has the time and knowledge can update it eventually.

Then that should be part of the checklist.

If "marked as outdated" is a template (or one of several, as translation outdate, general outdate, IDE or FPC version outdate....) => then the templates "pages linked to" report can be used.


Quote
Though several articles on a subject may exist, if they refer to each other. And briefly explain why both exist.
And if the don't, the solution may be to add this.

When I added these two points, I had this in mind: https://wiki.freepascal.org/unicode_use_cases
This page basically just states "sqlite and firebird require UTF-8 for their file paths", this information can be fully incorporated in one of the "Unicode Support" pages.
ok, but then, if the checklist is just a "reminder for you yourself", its ok. But if it is for others to help you, it is too generic.

-- Ok, last sentence, you pointed out the same, later in your reply...




In any case, my advice: Get started with the tools that are already there as part of the wiki as it is.

Maybe keep a report of it somewhere, so others can see examples of what can be done, and some will join you.

Because from my experience, this thread here (this forum discussion) will not get anyone to do anything. We had similar forum threads on various topics that all were widely agreed as "would be really good", and then the discussion ended, and nothing had been done, nor did ever get started.

Now, I don't know how to best attract volunteers. But I would guess, start doing it yourself and show off the results => not the worst way.

+ Fix spelling, grammar, phrasing and maybe style => should be fine (i.e. if you don't go to far on stylistic changes, then no one would have reason to object)
+ Add markers (template) for outdated content => no objections expected either

- On the other hand structural changes (changing title = moving page / merging or splitting) are maybe better discussed on examples.
- changing categories may also want to be peer reviewed (unless something is clearly in the wrong category, like windows API under gtk)


af0815

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Re: Wiki Strategy
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2023, 07:07:28 pm »
I think, as long as a ticket for a extension of the wiki is ignored for 8 years !!! a disussion about changes is meanigless. The first attemp was refused, because the version of the wiki was to old, the second attemp (after the version of the wiki is ok) was ignored. No comment - nothing - and this for years.

A dicussion without a maintainer of the wiki is like crying in the wind.
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Andreas

dbannon

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Re: Wiki Strategy
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2023, 03:17:06 pm »
OK, lets be clear here, the wiki is a bit like democracy - really pretty terrible but, honestly, heaps better than anything else we can imagine !

Replacing the wiki with a heavily structured, peer reviewed 'something' would be quite impossible given the available volunteers. The biggest problem, common to all wikis is that its easier to create new content than correct old content. And there sure is some old content in our wiki. People are reluctant to remove or edit old content in case its still valuable to someone.

My solution to that is, and I have done it on several pages, put the new content on the same page, leave the existing content lower down under a "Legacy" heading. As per my first paragraph, its terrible to leave it there but "someone might want it" !  Maybe we need to start marking whole pages as "Legacy" or something similar, its better that having a new user browse to a page that shocks them at how out of date it is.

I agree that having multiple languages makes searching hard, you search for a keyword and and are offered all the 'other' translated pages before you find the language you want. But, again, its the best we can do, its quite unreasonable to say that 'other' languages are not welcome, we can get by.

Trying to superimpose a structure onto a large wiki site is, from personal experience, impossible unless the person who wants the structure, and clearly understands the structure he wants, is willing to do all the work. Again, thats just not going to happen.

I consciously maintain a few pages and hack away at other as I come across a need. I personally think its a great way to record what I have learnt and do it, to some degree for my own benefit. Every now and again, I see edits that that I disagree with, sometimes to the extent I will contact the editor, in all cases a reasonable outcome ensured. Again, I say it, its not great but its OK !

And example might be the Installing Lazarus on Linux page, I have tried quite hard to make that one page. Having a separate page for every linux distribution is just plain silly. But we had/have pages dedicated to just one release of a particular distribution !  Maybe I need to get braver and start removing such distractions ?

But for all of that, my real position is that the Wiki is a valuable resource, its sometimes out of date, sometimes wrong, sometimes disorganized. But it is still valuable, rather than trying to design the next generation, fix whats there. Each small fix helps. A new, structured, controlled, peer reviewed system will not work !

David
Lazarus 3, Linux (and reluctantly Win10/11, OSX Monterey)
My Project - https://github.com/tomboy-notes/tomboy-ng and my github - https://github.com/davidbannon

Martin_fr

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Re: Wiki Strategy
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2023, 04:31:39 pm »
People are reluctant to remove or edit old content in case its still valuable to someone.

My solution to that is, and I have done it on several pages, put the new content on the same page, leave the existing content lower down under a "Legacy" heading. As per my first paragraph, its terrible to leave it there but "someone might want it" !  Maybe we need to start marking whole pages as "Legacy" or something similar, its better that having a new user browse to a page that shocks them at how out of date it is.

Another way is to link to the history version of the page.

That is, if you believe to have covered all the old content, only changed all references to how it is in the latest version. Yet, there is a chance someone may need to lookup how it worked with the old version.

https://wiki.freepascal.org/GDB_Debugger_Tips#Introduction
Code: Text  [Select][+][-]
  1. * This page is for Lazarus 1.0 and newer. For older versions see [{{fullurl:GDB_Debugger_Tips|oldid=62127}} previous version of this page]


Quote
And example might be the Installing Lazarus on Linux page, I have tried quite hard to make that one page. Having a separate page for every linux distribution is just plain silly. But we had/have pages dedicated to just one release of a particular distribution !  Maybe I need to get braver and start removing such distractions ?

https://wiki.freepascal.org/Install_on_Fedora
https://wiki.freepascal.org/Install_on_Ubuntu

Indeed, they have so little content, they can be merged to another page.
Or at least be merged together into a page "Installation tips for specific Linux distributions"

It is a matter of placing the correct redirects on the old pages. Not sure if a link to an anchor inside another page is possible. Also such an anchor can be renamed/removed (not the worst, would still link to the page)

Unless one inserts
Code: Text  [Select][+][-]
  1. <div id="redirect_target_foo_bar"><!-- Do not remove, used by old page foobar --></div>

 

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