IRC channel

[Bogen85]

At least for what I do, unless it is an embedded or some other constrained system, I likely would not use shortstring for anything.

OK... For sized records that get written out in a binary format...

But typically I'd just write out a json file, so ansistring would be just fine.

I'd rather just use ansistring so I don't have to worry about size, especially if non-ASCII UTF-8 characters are being used.

[Martin_fr]

https://wiki.freepascal.org/Shortstring

A Short string is always going to be 256 bytes.

I still fail to grasp why for simple questions like these it seems you want or expect others to look up the answers for you, when you could have just as easily looked them up yourself.

Interesting. But one can't do

shortstring[10];

This only works when string is shortstring?

And https://wiki.freepascal.org/Shortstring which gives the answer:

Its length is defined as: ShortString = String[255];

Shortstring already has a length set. It is a type defined as "String[255]"
So, no you can't do "shortstring[10]"

Something about a the woods and trees... Something about "in plain sight"...

[Bogen85]

I still fail to grasp why for simple questions like these it seems you want or expect others to look up the answers for you, when you could have just as easily looked them up yourself.

But the answer is not always simple, so my reaction there was not necessarily all that nice... (as to how me being corrected and my subsequent discovery played out...)

Interesting. But one can't do

shortstring[10];

This only works when string is shortstring?

And https://wiki.freepascal.org/Shortstring which gives the answer:

Its length is defined as: ShortString = String[255];

Shortstring already has a length set. It is a type defined as "String[255]"
So, no you can't do "shortstring[10]"

Something about a the woods and trees... Something about "in plain sight"...

One often has to do a bit more digging (or climbing to the tops of the trees) to get the whole picture...

Yeah.... So, does tkSString refer to short string or sized string?

And yes, I'm being a bit pedantic here...

[Martin_fr]

The thing is, one can still store UTF-8 in short strings, so the size limit can be confusing.

The size-specifier in "string[n]" always gives the size in "char", where "char" is the Pascal type "char" which is 1 byte in size.
The Pascal size "char" is not the same with what a human may perceive as a char (in Unicode, or multi-byte ASCII).

In the same way length, setlength, copy, and the index on any string (short, long, wide) is based an the relevant Pascal types.
That is "char" for short, ansi, unicode string. And that is widechar for widestring. ...

And just to be clear "widechar" is not the same as (what is perceived as a) Unicode char.
In Utf16 some Unicode-Codepoints ("Chars") are represented as surrogates. That takes two code-units. I.e. two widechar.

And in Unicode (independent of the transfer encoding) there are plenty of chars (human perceived chars) that are represented by several codepoints (using combining codepoints). The also need several char or widechar.

The term "char" is a very loose descriptor....

char can be
- Pascal type char (usually holding a Unicode transfer encoding Code-Unit.)
- Unicode codepoint (i.e. independent of transfer encoding / just U####). Potentially even a stand alone combining codepoint).
- Human perceived token (usually a Unicode entity with/without combining codepoints / but not necessarily limited to that)
- In rare (and even more loose) context to describe a Glyph. Where a glyph can represent one or more Unicode entities.

This list is just meant as example... It is neither complete nor correct => as in exceptions can probably be found to any of the statements. Which is to expected for a term ("char") that can be (and has been) used for nearly anything.

[Martin_fr]

Yeah.... So, does tkSString refer to short string or sized string?

And yes, I'm being a bit pedantic here...

Not sure where tkSString comes from (not bothered to search if it mentioned in any of the docs  ). Sounds like compile sources.

Anyway, there is
- the keyword "string"
- a Shortstring (not the defined type, but the general concept: any type defined as a Shortstring)
- "shortstring" the predefined type

a Shortstring always is fixed size.
The keyword does not have a size.

If ( {$H-} ) the keyword stand alone (on the right hand site of a type or var definition)

Code: Pascal  [Select][+][-]

1. type TFoo = string;
2. var TBar: string;

Then it is a shorthand for "string[255]". So the resulting a Shortstring type is sized.
(And obviously with {$H+} this changes....)

If the keyword is followed by a size "string[n]" then the size is "n"

"size" refers to the amount of (pascal type ) char, that can be hold. SizeOf will return more, since the length byte is part of the size too.

[Martin_fr]

Not sure where tkSString comes from (not bothered to search if it mentioned in any of the docs  ). Sounds like compile sources.

My bad... (should have searched at least this topic...)

From your previous (super long) post (of which I only cherry picked). But then yes, in some way from the compiler. More accurate from RTTI.

So, I would think: tkSString is what I just described as a Shortstring

[Bogen85]

Ok... Since this is the IRC channel thread, I'll hijack it back to the original subject...

From the "Who are the Pascal lovers..." topic...

Because they might be using some program they like that is written in Lazarus or free pascal, and they are trying to work with the maintainers of said program (or some other pascal programmer that could help). They might not have the kind of attitudes of free pascal you want. However, they are trying to improve an existing tool they find a lot of value in.

If that is the case they need to find the people who actually created the application before complaining about it.
Actually we have had trolls/{people who think we are their servants} come to both platforms with some program written in pascal/ delphi repeatedly demanding that we fix it right away. This is just another style of trolling whether it’s intentional or not. I’m sure everyone remembers the troll demanding to compile a program with windows dependencies in linux not so long ago.

Fake help requests often ensnare what few good people are still active and wastes their time and frustrates them, making them less likely to try to help in future. We have had a troll that kept coming to irc with different accounts asking the same exact question should he use oop. No matter what people said he would manage to turn it into an argument, filling the chat with drivel and annoying people who didn’t understand that he was a troll.

There is maybe the scenerio where someone Who hates Pascal has been hired to translate legacy pascal code to another language. We have no obligation to help someone who is being paid to get rid of pascal, it’s in our best interests to go in the opposite direction. People who hate pascal poison the chat with their negativity. We have no obligations to be punching bags for everyone who is unhappy that pascal still exists.

Another possibility is someone has some fancy old code they want to redo using pascal thats great but this also means that they need to know pascal language!!

I often try to help people who don’t know pascal by giving them link to good online book on pascal. Not a single one has ever thanked me nor read the book. Do you want to know why? Because they are not interested in using pascal, they are there to troll.

My reply to this forthcoming...

However, a lot of good stuff has been discussed in here, and I have learned some things...

[Bogen85]

From my experience being on IRC with you Joanna you ban people who had no reason to be banned.

You also accused two others at least to be trolls (and that is documented in these forum) and they were determined not to be trolls, yet you still continued to insist they were.

Recently you banned one individual claiming he was someone else. (And that someone else is clearly not a troll).

If you still believe that someone else is a troll (you know who I am referring to), then please, put him on trial here in the forum like you did with the other two you falsely accused and put on trial here in the forum. If that individual is really as bad as you say he is, then others on this forum need to hear your side on why you think he is so terrible for the Free Pascal Community.

And on the one you claimed to be this someone else, he has gone to the unofficial free pascal discord (he could never get on to #fpc on Libera because you kept kicking him, as he never even got on the channel to say anything). He has received a lot of help for his programs there. He has actual programs he is working on, and needs help, and has received help. (From me and also from other individuals on this forum that help out other users).

If you still believe him to be a troll, then please, put him on trial here in this forum as well.

I know what I'm saying might come across as being harsh.

I'm simply being honest.

I would likely still be active on #fpc on Libera if were not for your intolerance and attacks on those you don't understand.

And for those that might wonder why I'm not PM'ing Joanna concerning this, I have done so a lot already, and have also privately chatted with her on IRC concerning this going back a very long time.

I won't take it as a personal affront at all if moderators remove this reply. I'm just saying what needs to be said

[Joanna from IRC]

As Bogen85 has so amply Illustrated there is another facet of trouble trolls cause.. thanks to trolls an otherwise friendly relationship i had with Bogen85 has been completely destroyed because he has chosen to to side with people who are trying to cause trouble. This is another technique of wrecking communities by causing infighting . Bogen85 I’m so sorry that you have been tricked. You have made a bad choice of who to trust.

The person you are talking about is named tony stone.shortly before I banned him he had viciously slandered me in the #fpc channel and tried to get a Libera staff member to remove the +r registered only requirement for channel. 

I have never trusted tony stone and was disappointed to see him attack me in channel. To his credit he did seem to be familiar with Lazarus but seemed to just fool around bouncing from one thing to another. I don’t buy his cover story about being an air conditioning technician. He liked to tell heartwarming stories about his kids doing pascal. I don’t know if they are true.
 He sometimes  said things that were inciting violence like an undercover cop would, like “I’m going to Kill those people if they do such and such.. I have been talking to him for years and know him in ways that Bogen85 does not.

Before the incident with tony there had been a staff member of the Linux channel named sauvin who came to troll the fpc channel. He used a temporary nick like furor to trick the channel logs. He was literally cussing at us and people were complaining to me so I banned him.Then he pmed me and continued trolling.

After this all sorts of accounts belonging to people who do not seem to belong in channel have been showing up. Some of the accounts were created at Libera server launch.

The trolls making their scores of backups accounts really interfered with legit users registering on Libera. As a result we lost Jamie from irc because he got frustrated with not being able to register. Jamie taught me so much about pascal and helped so many people. The fpc channel will never be the same again without him.

Bogen85 if you had not deleted my messages in your temper tantrum you would have seen my explanation of who ...
EDITED MY MODERATOR - see note below - for protection of other IRC members - Martin_fr

I sincerely hope that you and tony stone can write some amazing code together. I can’t wait to see it 

One thing I’d like to Mention about trends in irc. It seems like the trolls strike when a channel has gotten very active and full of friendly discussions and getting better. After I talked Bogen85 into returning to irc he enlivened the fpc channel quite a bit. Then the trolls attacked and put an end to that.

[KodeZwerg]

Ban is really the last I personal would do and I am moderator not just on 1 big Pascal related discord server 
18+ (xxx content) or racism lead to instant ban when I have duty, that I will never allow. 
Having small fights like trolls (small kids) are doing, well "timeout" or "kick" to make them calm if they not listen to us moderators. 

About your private problems, that should not be talked about on a public board.
Sometimes it is good to speak about such in a group chat, maybe with a mediator, that is just my humble opinion.
But I guess on that case everything is too late by re-reading all this.  :'(

[440bx]

I suppose everything goes in an IRC channel, therefore...

A nugget of truth that will be on topic for the forum is that, while I've learned a fair number of languages through the years, for complex programming on PCs Pascal is by far my favorite.  For plain (read simple) business applications (usually on big or "medium" iron), COBOL is by far my favorite (I am yet to see another programming language that can hold a candle to COBOL's formatting abilities), it's also the language who has the most features I miss in Pascal.

There is only one other thing I am as passionate about as I am about programming and that is, soccer.  Between FPC, the Lazarus IDE and the world cup... it doesn't get any better than this

[Joanna from IRC]

Did I by chance make a comment about killing someone who would hurt my kids?  Someone possibly hurting them in ways we have had off topic discussions about maybe concerning forced vaccinations and removal of my kids from school?     

Yes that’s right your plan was to send your kids to school and then kill the people at the school if they vaccinated the kids when you weren’t there. I didn’t see the logic of such a plan and suggested home schooling.

When I first met you you just appeared one day out of nowhere and were very enthusiastic about Lazarus and then you asked to screen share which raised a huge red flag. You have always been rather hyper and disrespectful but to your credit you seemed to use Lazarus. Your behavior in irc was unacceptable and I will never share a chat channel with you again. Yes your behavior was logged. If anyone cares to check.

You banned my uncle right after he registered to get in the channel.  He is still learning Pascal without your IRC channel.

Who was your uncle? It is Interesting that you suddenly have an “uncle” interested in pascal.

To fill in the details earlier about what happened in irc it turned out that sauvin the troll from the linux channel is buddy buddy with some of the Libera staff so the staff started trying to interfere with the channel moderation.
Bogen85 you were right about Libera staff being woke, one of them started talking talking to me in that lingo they use for lgbt inclusive stuff. I was shocked.

Here is another pro tip on trolls.. sometimes they work in pairs arguing or creating a consensus. Tony stone is very good at praising Lazarus to try to gain our confidence, but is he doing any serious projects or just fooling around? Talk is cheap. He claims to love Lazarus yet wants to make Irc channel More accessible to trolls.

While I was offline, tony Stone who had not been too active in the channel For a long time suddenly was telling all sorts of lies and pretending to be “angry“ about how the channel needed to be more accessible to unregistered accounts.
The #lazarus channel requires no registration and is easy to access but is rather inactive because people who want help are impatient and leave before anyone can respond usually. Trolls also visit the #lazarus  channel and babble about nonsense.

There is only one other thing I am as passionate about as I am about programming and that is, soccer.  Between FPC, the Lazarus IDE and the world cup... it doesn't get any better than this

I wish we had more people like you in irc instead of lurkers and trolls but if you are too busy I guess it can’t be helped.

Ban is really the last I personal would do and I am moderator not just on 1 big Pascal related discord server 
18+ (xxx content) or racism lead to instant ban when I have duty, that I will never allow. 
Having small fights like trolls (small kids) are doing, well "timeout" or "kick" to make them calm if they not listen to us moderators. 

After awhile you will realize that trolls can’t help themselves and can always come back. Banning only slows them down a little ...
The concept of timeouts is one approach the op of #programming used to do that on freenode when people started arguing about politics. It’s very labor intensive and kind of humiliating for people on receiving end. To be honest I don’t want to deal with people that need to be disciplined I want to be in a channel where members mutually respect eachother.

[Bogen85]

Tony Stone never tricked me, he is just being sarcastic in response to Joanna.

As far as Joanna's claims on individuals I've somehow "sided with", well, I'll stand on the side of reality, and with other contributing hero members in this forum who are also active elsewhere who are also siding with reality.

But even what I've saying in this reply is likely to personal for a forum like this.

I'm passionate about Programming, Pascal, especially Free Pascal. Otherwise I would not have said what I did in my recent posts in the "Who are the Pascal lovers..." topic thread and in my recent calling out of Joanna on this thread for pouring water on sparks of interest in Free Pascal and Lazarus from others just because she does not understand them.

And then Joanna is constantly complaining about the dwindling IRC channels she is active. Which are my observation is primarily due her lack of understanding of where people from other programming backgrounds or cultures (where they actually grew up) and as a result she is intolerant of them.

Joanna, you are very passionate about Pascal. But not everyone who is interested in Pascal (even if that is just get help with it) shares your same "Pascal is end all be all of programming languages and should be the only you are using across the board at work, for hobby, etc, if you want to participate in any Pascal related forum or chat" views.

Because of the intolerance and due to your constant attacks on those you don't understand is what has led up to what is transpiring now in this thread.

[Bogen85]

You know... I have had my IRC client connected for years and years.  Maybe I shall just see what lies in the logs?

This is one of the reasons I prefer forums (public record) to IRC. And I see no need need to expose my own IRC logs to others, as I could have easily modified them.

And chat platforms (where apart from private messing) all logs are persistent on the server for those on that chat forum.

All group conversations being on the "public record" is good. Even if that "public record" is only for those that register on said forum or chat server.

Sticking to the forums and platforms with "public records" is a very good thing, as it helps prevents thing degenerating to the point where we have gotten to here.

[Bogen85]

After I talked Bogen85 into returning to irc he enlivened the fpc channel quite a bit.

Thanks for those kind words!