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Author Topic: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl  (Read 44947 times)

Webdrifter

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2020, 04:15:25 pm »
@nospambox - I checked the future plans page: https://www.freepascal.org/future.html

And ques what? Linking with C++ code is right up there!

So maybe you can help them out with that one.

And thus help solve your own problems with Free Pascal / Lazarus).
And maybe learn some really neat stuff in the process.

I'm sure  the development team will be very glad with any really useful help they can get.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2020, 04:31:53 pm by Webdrifter »

Webdrifter

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2020, 04:57:19 pm »
However, for the forum you've to wait for the final release of SMF 2.1 as this introduces a responsive design but as you can see it's still at RC2 after almost 6 years. :-X

When I look for that topic on RC2 of SMF 2.1, I find: "The term "Release Candidate" means that the developers believe this version of the software is reliable enough to be installed and used on production websites. "

There are probably good reasons why we still don't use it. But maybe the administrators can explain to me why?


nospambox

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2020, 05:36:47 pm »
@nospambox - I checked the future plans page: https://www.freepascal.org/future.html

And ques what? Linking with C++ code is right up there!

So maybe you can help them out with that one.

And thus help solve your own problems with Free Pascal / Lazarus).
And maybe learn some really neat stuff in the process.

I'm sure  the development team will be very glad with any really useful help they can get.

I know... But it is roadmapped for quite a while... And I searched the status in the dev branch. It seems not even started.

Blade

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2020, 08:42:07 pm »
May we can make our forum and wiki's more friendly for use with mobile devices?

When I'm not sitting in front of my computer, I often visit this forum using my mobile phone. It does not look good on my phone.

When they want to know something the search on Youtube first.

Yes YouTube. Youngsters like YouTube, not my favorite but I also spend some time watching it.

I am glad to see some nice users post their tutorials on YouTube but I wish to see more:
https://wiki.freepascal.org/Lazarus_videos

I agree that for a short-term goal, simple promotional actions are good.  New Free Pascal/Lazarus focused YouTube training videos, update the Free Pascal Wikipedia with more training material, a website that looks good on mobile phones (though that might take some work), and more public advocacy by forum members.  These seem doable.

Part of the battle is public awareness.  We shouldn't have people that even though they are in the programming community, when someone says Pascal, they think it disappeared in the 90s.  "Oh yeah I used Turbo Pascal way back when, but isn't that language dead?"  "Ah no, go check out Free Pascal/Lazarus."

VTwin

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2020, 12:29:59 am »
"REALbasic" seems to have a problem with their association with BASIC. First they tried renaming it "Real Studio", then "Xojo".

Maybe because of Dijkstra's famous words: "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."

Wikipedia: "Xojo has been listed several times among the top 150 programming languages as published by TIOBE".  :D

I like "Bamboo", but how about "Blaise" or "Blaze"? I'm not really advocating anything, I'm happily using "Lazarus" because it works.

Cheers,
VTwin
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 12:49:43 am by VTwin »
“Talk is cheap. Show me the code.” -Linus Torvalds

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winni

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2020, 12:53:34 am »
Hi!

They should have called  Xojo the "UnRealBasic".

"Lazarus - The whitest whites ever!"

How about that? Some Dada adds?
Brings more attention than "We do this and that".

Winni

PS.: "Lazarus - 1.999 $ cheaper than Xojo Pro Plus!"
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 12:57:53 am by winni »

TRon

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2020, 12:58:16 am »
I like "Bamboo", ..
Every time I read that word my mind reads bamboozled instead  :)
Today is tomorrow's yesterday.

VTwin

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2020, 01:01:48 am »
Hi!

They should have called  Xojo the "UnRealBasic".

"Lazarus - The whitest whites ever!"

How about that? Some Dada adds?
Brings more attention than "We do this and that".

Winni

PS.: "Lazarus - 1.999 $ cheaper than Xojo Pro Plus!"

:D I fell into the REALbasic trap when it was a good cross-platform alternative. Extracting myself from that mess was arduous.
“Talk is cheap. Show me the code.” -Linus Torvalds

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Windows 7 Pro SP1: Lazarus 3.8 (64 bit on VBox)

PierceNg

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2020, 04:05:31 am »
I have been programmer in Delphi / FPC since 1995. Private and corporate usage.

I remember the Windows shareware scene - FTP sites like cica.cica, aggregators like download.com, payment processors like ... can't remember their names lol. IMHO, a major reason for the vibrancy was that there was money to be made, not just by selling applications, but also by selling components, libraries, tools and such to the programmers building those applications in Delphi, VB, etc.

These days the world is much different. Try-before-you-buy still exists but now they are SaaS and APIs. And the heavily hyped languages especially those with corporate backing already come "batteries included" and have hordes of programmers, paid or not, producing yet more open source. People expect their programming language ecosystem to be free as in free beer.

Certainly Free Pascal and Lazarus are also batteries included, thanks to the developers who generously made and continue making those batteries. My own interest is in server-side web programming and Free Pascal has enough libraries to get going. Indeed as a newcomer the choices can be bewildering.

Blade

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2020, 05:44:07 am »
SchoolFreeware might be updating their Free Pascal/Lazarus video series.  Not sure if the video was a one off for Windows 10 or are they planning more.  But it's good they are giving a shoutout.
https://youtu.be/05S7z8bmOjY

Aiming Free Pascal/Lazarus at schools seems like a winning strategy, as the language has a number of inherent advantages such as being easier to understand, for making GUIs, and being easy to get a hold of without any strings attached (like e-mail addresses or yearly licenses).

Something interesting about Pascal/Object Pascal videos on YouTube is a lot of them are non-English.  This might be indicative of the programming language's relatively greater use/popularity in other countries (or at least their school system).

A mention should also be made for Swinburne University's Object Pascal YouTube series
CodeCasts - Introduction to Programming in Pascal
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 08:14:51 am by Blade »

PascalDragon

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2020, 09:54:45 am »
The same applies to the development of FPC/Lazarus even if I know that some people don't like Github but it's the #1 like Google is for searching the web. If you want to attract new people go to the place where they are. ;)
I mean, sure you can host your own Gitee/Gitlab instance but if the amount of volunteers is limited and the few don't even keep pace with updating/installing asked plug-ins or features why running another software?

It was already decided that if we (FPC) move to Git that we'll use our own GitLab instance with probably a GitHub mirror. We are not putting our main repository into the sole hands of a cloud provider. This has the added benefit that we can have an internal repository that includes the full FPC history including those commits that included copyrighted code.

trev

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2020, 10:28:31 am »
A mention should also be made for Swinburne University's Object Pascal YouTube series
CodeCasts - Introduction to Programming in Pascal

Better links the Swinburne University of Technology videos for the whole series (including code attachments) is the listing I made on the Wiki: Free Pascal Video Tutorials.

Blade

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2020, 12:04:22 pm »
A mention should also be made for Swinburne University's Object Pascal YouTube series
CodeCasts - Introduction to Programming in Pascal

Better links the Swinburne University of Technology videos for the whole series (including code attachments) is the listing I made on the Wiki: Free Pascal Video Tutorials.

Yes, they are there.  I was more going on about English videos among the non-English ones out there.  Something to note, as with the SchoolFreeware and Devstructor series, it's been some years since these video series were created.  They all are quite good, so quality isn't the issue.  Would be nice to figure away to get more visibility for such free learning from the Object Pascal Wikipedia and Free Pascal Wikipedia.

When you look up Pascal, Object Pascal, Lazarus...  A lot of the new videos and series are non-English.  Take these for example:
Introdução ao Lazarus e Pascal.  Brazilian Portuguese...  Which is fantastic. 
Curso de programación en Lazarus Project Free Pascal.  Another good looking one in Spanish.

Maybe finding a way to list these video series in different languages would be nice, if they aren't already.  And just saying some newer English ones would be great too.

Ultimately, it would be good to keep a strong push towards schools.  Without a huge global corporation pushing Object Pascal as its pet language, one of the other routes would be schools and academia, to help with popularity. 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 12:17:00 pm by Blade »

Martin_fr

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2020, 02:26:28 pm »
The people behind the Foundation should think about moving to Github Pages so everyone could suggest changes by simple pull requests. The same applies to the development of FPC/Lazarus even if I know that some people don't like Github but it's the #1 like Google is for searching the web. If you want to attract new people go to the place where they are. ;)
I mean, sure you can host your own Gitee/Gitlab instance but if the amount of volunteers is limited and the few don't even keep pace with updating/installing asked plug-ins or features why running another software?

Presence on GitHub is certainly a marketing argument. In which way it will manifest itself, is however a good question....

In any case, despite the critical questions that follow below, creating a (yet another) github mirror, may help a little. So if it can be done with little effort, then it definitely should be done.

Keep in mind, it has been looked into already. And there are steps (e.g. developers have scripts for certain tasks) in the development/release process that need heavy work to be change.
So changing the main repro is a big task (bigger than you would think)



* More Google hits?
Well there is an FPC mirror already: https://github.com/graemeg/freepascal
And 2 Lazarus mirrors. So google should have the hits for those already.



*New users to trust the project more easily?
I have a feeling that may be true for some people, despite it is absolutely illogical.



* Pull request easier for the developer than patches?
Well not for me.
I already work with git, on my local pc, and applying a patch and comparing it in git is as easy as looking at a pull request.
I should say that for me, the online interface to compare pullrequests is no good (So my feedback comes by mail, no annotations via the online interface). I always pull the requests to my local repro, and compare them locally.
So patch/pull requests, is the exact same amount of work to me.



* More contributors?
I am not that sure... Yes at first glance I would think so too.
But people have reasoned for so many things (that they wanted to be done), with this and similar arguments. And not once has it happens. We had been promised huge amount of new users if we would only change the version to 1.0. We are at 2.0 now. Still waiting for the spike in new users (there have been new users, and maybe the rate has increased over time, but I did not see any increase correlated to the 1.0 date....

Keep in mind that writing the code, that you want to contribute is a lot more work and needs more knowledge and skills, than submitting a patch (or even submitting an entire copy of the modified file (which people have done, sigh))

And having the option of pull requests, does not change many other issues:
- You need to check first, if the feature/fix itself is acceptable (submitting codetools for whitespacehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language), may be rejected, even if your code has the finest quality)
- Dealing with the forth an back, until the submission has the format/quality required
- Dealing with delays until someone has time to answer.

The "delay" issue, is unfortunately a big problem.
Even if you are lucky and a developer picks up your issue and takes care of it, that developer could take weeks to answer. I have been at both ends (being the developer and being the contributor, the latter with various projects).

But worse, because the projects have a flat team structure, there is no-one who will "force assign" patches to a team member. (the team members are all volunteers, they only do work that they volunteer to do). So sometimes a patch comes along, and everyone thinks: This does not fall into the area of the project which I am working on.
Then the patch may be unattended for very very long.
That is a massive and really bad problem. No patch should ever be left without a reply. But it does happen. And GitHub is not going to change it.

But we can actually test it.
I run a github mirror myself: https://github.com/User4martin/lazarus
On this mirror, it is possible to make pull requests. However, the only person looking at those is me. So pull request for anything that does not fall into my area will be closed without even a review.
Generally, if you have a pull request for SynEdit or the Debugger, then you can make it on this mirror. (You should check that the feature itself is acceptable, and that you are looking at the correct place to implement it... Those pre-conditions also apply).
So far I had one. Which started with patches, and only became pull-requests when I pointed to the possibility. So the contributor existed without need for github.




« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 02:28:13 pm by Martin_fr »

Fred vS

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2020, 05:18:28 pm »
Quote
And GitHub is not going to change it.

GitHub-site is not open source.

If you want your own git server, with a nice web-site, you should use GitLab-code that is free and open source.

Fre;D
I use Lazarus 2.2.0 32/64 and FPC 3.2.2 32/64 on Debian 11 64 bit, Windows 10, Windows 7 32/64, Windows XP 32,  FreeBSD 64.
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