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Author Topic: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus  (Read 3418 times)

munair

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FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« on: April 30, 2020, 10:24:19 pm »
Since about two years I've been using Manjaro Linux as my daily OS. I also use it for software development and (heavy) testing. Manjaro is a rolling release OS, meaning it always updates to the latest version of software packages. In contrast, most Linux distro's have a point release every 3-5 years and new updates such as Lazarus from version 2.0.6 to 2.0.8 will not be updated automatically in-between these point releases. A manual override is required at the risk of breaking compatibility and dependency chains.

Not so with Manjaro! This OS very much behaves like Windows in that the most recent updates are installed. What stands out is that Manjaro despite being a rolling release OS, is rock-solid.

While in the past on Debian based systems, such as Ubuntu and Mint I had to manually install the latest Lazarus along side the OS's frozen version, on Manjaro I simply get notified that a Lazarus update is ready to be downloaded. Apparently, someone within the Manjaro community actively maintains Manjaro's Lazarus package!

In my experience it's the best OS hands down.
It's only logical.

winni

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2020, 11:00:16 pm »
Hi!

Suse does this since years.

Get your online updates on the command line or with their tool Yast.
Only the necessary updates inbetween for the Leap series.
And then a version update.

Or a nearly daily rolling update for Tumbleweed.

The Lazarus updates are also in the online-updates as rpm packages and installed absolutly correct .

It seems that the other distros start to learn from Suse and their experience of more than 25 years.

Winni
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 11:02:14 pm by winni »

munair

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2020, 11:20:18 pm »
Hi!

Suse does this since years.

Get your online updates on the command line or with their tool Yast.
Only the necessary updates inbetween for the Leap series.
And then a version update.

Or a nearly daily rolling update for Tumbleweed.

The Lazarus updates are also in the online-updates as rpm packages and installed absolutly correct .

It seems that the other distros start to learn from Suse and their experience of more than 25 years.

Winni
Before Manjaro, I tried Suse Tumbleweed for about 6 months. Then, after an update, the system was broken and refused to boot.

While Suse is one of the earliest distro's, Tumbleweed - their rolling release version - is much more recent. My criticism regarding Suse in general is their package management system; it is not efficient in uninstalling orphaned dependencies. I've heard others complain about that as well.

Manjaro, so far, is the only rolling release that has not yet let me down. It does not offer the most bleeding edge software, but instead takes a bit of time (but not much) to test new updates. It is the first distro that gives me a real professional, Windows-like experience (from a user and stability point of view).
It's only logical.

winni

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2020, 11:37:22 pm »

Before Manjaro, I tried Suse Tumbleweed for about 6 months. Then, after an update, the system was broken and refused to boot.


And why didn't you make a rollback?

I have had never a problem with Tumbleweed.

And before Tumbleweed Suse had something like a rolling release:
It was up to you if you only installed security patches or new versions of  applications.
Everything just one click away.

And the 25 year old debate about package formats - it is useless, full of fakes and wrong information and only fun for Trolls.

Winni

munair

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2020, 11:49:39 pm »
And the 25 year old debate about package formats - it is useless, full of fakes and wrong information and only fun for Trolls.

I do not know about that debate. I was speaking from my own experience: installing software which took along with it a bunch of packages that refused to go orphan after I uninstalled the same software. Debian's package management, for example, is much more efficient in this respect.

My very first experience with Linux was in 1998: SuSE 6.4. I have tried many distro's since then. In my experience nothing comes currently close to the quality that Manjaro offers, which I'm sure has a great deal to do with the fact that it is built from Arch. A good second IMO is MX Linux.
It's only logical.

winni

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2020, 12:30:31 am »
And now we all sing:

Holy, holy Manjaro!


avra

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2020, 12:44:07 am »
Manjaro, so far, is the only rolling release that has not yet let me down.
I do like Manjaro, but I did see an unsuccessful update where some packages failed. It took me lots of time and effort to correct it. It seams it had something with the fact that I did not update that much. Ah yes, and XFCE had to be fixed to avoid double typing in Lazarus (if I recall correctly). On the other hand, if one doesn't need rolling release and just wants to have a current, trunk or any specific version of fpc/laz combo then Debian or anything else with fpcupdeluxe is enough. And you get easy cross compilation as a bonus.

It is always nice to have a choice and everyone can choose to his liking...
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 12:45:51 am by avra »
ct2laz - Conversion between Lazarus and CodeTyphon
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dbannon

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2020, 01:10:01 am »
Hmm, interesting.

Ubuntu 20.04 LTS released a week or so ago. It has 2.0.6.   And will have 2.0.6 until 2023 or later if you have a maintenance contract !

 :(


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winni

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2020, 01:27:46 am »
Hi!

Suse made an update from 2.06 to 2.08 4 or 5 days after the official release.

And as always: everything in place.
One click and a message appears that it is a new  version.
If I want that ....

Winni

Warfley

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2020, 02:45:59 am »
Most RR distros have current lazarus versions. Hell even Debian has if you are using the sid or experimental repositories (and thereby this can also be used in Ubuntu, Mint, and all distros building ontop of debian). In some sense Debian has even the advantage that you can install things you need a stable version of from the stable repo and things like lazarus from sid or experimental using "apt-get -t sid lazarus"

I like Manjaro and use it myself (as I'm to stupid/lazy to use Arch) and I really enjoy some of the neat little features of manjaro/arch, first and foremost the really advanced package system with pacman and the AUR. But after all these are all only neat and little features, and other linux distros have other nice features (like yast in SUSE or contents search in packages using dpkg in debian).

But what you are praising here is absolutely nothing special (if even debian has it). Honestly you sound a little like someone who recently discovered the customization of vim or emacs and now feels the need to preach how much better this is than others.


That said Manjaro has also some heavy drawbacks. Sure pacman and AUR are great with their really advanced features, but are also a very advanced way to skrew up your whole system. You can use pacman to completely break your system and for some operations you need to know your system really well. With zypper or apt breaking your system is quite hard.
Also the testing phase of Manjaro is great if you don't want to have broken software like you can sometimes get with Arch, but it is also infamous for delaying security critical updates, due to this test cycle. I don't know the current state of this matter but there is/was the common problem that while systems like debian get the security patches for their stable versions out in minutes/hours after they are published, in Manjaro they often end up in the same testing cycle as other updates, delaying them for 1-2 weeks.

munair

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2020, 08:22:30 am »
I do like Manjaro, but I did see an unsuccessful update where some packages failed. It took me lots of time and effort to correct it. It seams it had something with the fact that I did not update that much.

Because updates can make critical changes to the system, I usually close all programs before I allow the updates and reboot the system afterwards.

Suse made an update from 2.06 to 2.08 4 or 5 days after the official release.

Tumbleweed is more cutting edge as a rolling release, but basically you're the one doing the testing. This is true for all distro's that maintain an enterprise version or a stable vs testing branch.

In some sense Debian has even the advantage that you can install things you need a stable version of from the stable repo and things like lazarus from sid or experimental using "apt-get -t sid lazarus"

With emphasis on 'experimental'. Of course, in Debian you can use backports to get your hands on newer versions, but at the risk of destabilizing the system. For this reason, on the Debian website they warn about using backports. I usually advice against it unless you know exactly what you're doing.

Quote
But what you are praising here is absolutely nothing special (if even debian has it). Honestly you sound a little like someone who recently discovered the customization of vim or emacs and now feels the need to preach how much better this is than others.

In my experience of 22 years of Linux, Manjaro stands out in stability and _tested_ updates. A main advantage is that Manjaro is not feeding a separate enterprise or stable release and they wait with their updates until they found it reasonably stable. There are not many distro's out there that provide the same service.

No, I did not just discover it, like I said, I've been working with Manjaro for over two years and had little issues so far. I cannot say the same of distro's that I ran for several years, except Debian stable, which I always use for dedicated servers.

Quote
That said Manjaro has also some heavy drawbacks. Sure pacman and AUR are great with their really advanced features, but are also a very advanced way to skrew up your whole system.

Pacman is hard to beat as a package management system. But it is not hard to screw up a Linux system _any_ system if you don't know what you're doing.

Quote
Also the testing phase of Manjaro is great if you don't want to have broken software [..] but it is also infamous for delaying security critical updates [..]

You make it sound like you're at great risk if a security patch comes a bit later. Manjaro's testing phase is not just great, it is extremely important to ensure a stable system. Like you said, "if you don't want to have broken software...".
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 08:26:00 am by munair »
It's only logical.

PascalDragon

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2020, 02:49:32 pm »
No, I did not just discover it, like I said, I've been working with Manjaro for over two years and had little issues so far. I cannot say the same of distro's that I ran for several years, except Debian stable, which I always use for dedicated servers.

Quote
That said Manjaro has also some heavy drawbacks. Sure pacman and AUR are great with their really advanced features, but are also a very advanced way to skrew up your whole system.

Pacman is hard to beat as a package management system. But it is not hard to screw up a Linux system _any_ system if you don't know what you're doing.

Quote
Also the testing phase of Manjaro is great if you don't want to have broken software [..] but it is also infamous for delaying security critical updates [..]

You make it sound like you're at great risk if a security patch comes a bit later. Manjaro's testing phase is not just great, it is extremely important to ensure a stable system. Like you said, "if you don't want to have broken software...".

I agree. Pacman is awesome.

I personally use ArchLinux as my goto Linux distro, even for Windows Subsystem for Linux. ;)

avra

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2020, 07:12:41 pm »
I do like Manjaro, but I did see an unsuccessful update where some packages failed. It took me lots of time and effort to correct it. It seams it had something with the fact that I did not update that much.

Because updates can make critical changes to the system, I usually close all programs before I allow the updates and reboot the system afterwards.
So do I. If I remember well users all over the net were complaining about those same several broken packages as mine, and manual command line fix was discovered months later. I do like Manjaro and it has some good features, but there were also issues that I can not pretend as if they didn't happen.
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Warfley

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2020, 07:43:20 pm »
Tumbleweed is more cutting edge as a rolling release, but basically you're the one doing the testing. This is true for all distro's that maintain an enterprise version or a stable vs testing branch.
Wrong: https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed
Quote
Tumbleweed is based on Factory, openSUSE's main development codebase. Tumbleweed is updated once Factory's bleeding edge software has been integrated, stabilized and tested.

With emphasis on 'experimental'. Of course, in Debian you can use backports to get your hands on newer versions, but at the risk of destabilizing the system. For this reason, on the Debian website they warn about using backports. I usually advice against it unless you know exactly what you're doing.

With emphasis on 'sid'. I mentioned experimental if you want to go nuts, but sid contains only stable and tested versions, as this is the repo that will become the next stable.

Quote
In my experience of 22 years of Linux, Manjaro stands out in stability and _tested_ updates. A main advantage is that Manjaro is not feeding a separate enterprise or stable release and they wait with their updates until they found it reasonably stable. There are not many distro's out there that provide the same service.

Like tumbleweed. Also, yes they do some testing, that said it also happens once in a while that your system will break with an update. It doesn't happen often but it happens. in the 3-4 or so years I'm now using Manjaro I completely broke my system a few times (driver and x11 updates). When you decide to use Manjaro you should expect to sometimes have to get your hands dirty when fixing some problems.

Quote
No, I did not just discover it, like I said, I've been working with Manjaro for over two years and had little issues so far. I cannot say the same of distro's that I ran for several years, except Debian stable, which I always use for dedicated servers.
I've tried many Linux systems for my PC over the past few years before I settled to Manjaro, the reason was simple, I had driver issues that i was able to fix on Manjaro pretty easiely. That said, on my server I wouldn't want to miss OpenSuse with yast. In over 5 years I didn't have a single problem on that Server.

Pacman is hard to beat as a package management system. But it is not hard to screw up a Linux system _any_ system if you don't know what you're doing.
Well I wouldn't say that. In pacman the thing that stops you from breaking your system is nothing more than a yes/no question on regular commands on for example zypper, it doesn't let you harm your system with any regular command and you need to add --force to do anything wrong with it. Sure not a big hurdle, but at least some hurdle, that stops you from doing really stupid things.

Quote
You make it sound like you're at great risk if a security patch comes a bit later. Manjaro's testing phase is not just great, it is extremely important to ensure a stable system. Like you said, "if you don't want to have broken software...".

Yes timely security patches are extremely important. These are bugfixes that in most cases don't add new functionality or break anything. They are considered safe (which is why they are shipped on release even on stable distros like debian). Delaying them for a week can be devastating.

For example let's say I'm a 1337 haxxor and I see firefox just published a security update that fixes a session hijacking bug. What do I do, I look into the FF source to see what was fixed, prepare a website that abuses the bug, e.g. to buy stuff via amazon or take over social media accounts, and make it an ad and just have to wait for out of date browsers to see that ad.
This is exactly the reason why crome and FF auto update on Windows and MacOS on each start and the user can't disable it. Having such updates delayed by a week should terrify you

munair

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Re: FYI: Manjaro Linux Auto-Updates Lazarus
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2020, 08:27:14 pm »
Wrong: https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Tumbleweed
The page you linked to says:
Quote
On November 4th 2014 the Tumbleweed rolling release and Factory rolling release merged, leaving the single openSUSE Tumbleweed rolling release we have today

It was one of the reasons why in 2017 I installed Tumbleweed. Several months later the system broke after an update. I also had issues with Yast which at one point refused to start in the GUI. Perhaps for others the distro works. For me it didn't. If it had, I might have still use it today. In any case, the speed with which they provide updates suggest that the test cycle is (much) shorter than that of Manjaro. This is not necessarily bad, but my experience with Manjaro so far has been much better.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 10:14:06 pm by munair »
It's only logical.

 

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