What about a more modern IDE?

[Septe]

Since I've wasted my time reading this far, I'll put in my few cents in.  How will we be sure that something will be good?  Implement it and see?  The advantage that MS has is they have money to throw at VS and experiment to see what works and what doesn't.  So what does that leave us?  I'm not certain copying VS is the answer but it is an answer.  Mind you, I've never used VS so I don't know what's the hoopla is all about.  I do know what I want in an ide:  simple, fast, easily learned in pieces.  By simple, I mean when you bring it up, it should look clean and uncluttered.  Gosh's example did not look simple.  As for Lazarus, it looks simple compared with Gosh's example but I can't tell you how many times I've lost a particular window and had to look for it.  So it does need some work.  Fast is exactly that.  It should be responsive and quick.  Code completion is pretty snappy even though I have typed faster than the ide can keep up.  In this matter, I'm happy with Lazarus.  Easily learned in pieces.  By this, I mean that one shouldn't have to learn the whole ide all at once.  I've tried Eclipse and hated it.  Lazarus also is easily learned without having to know the whole thing.  Lazarus also doesn't overwhelm you with features in your face.  I've used Lazarus for two weeks and still learning the ins and outs of it.

Btw, I declined to add my input to the little survey.  I felt it was a no win survey and no matter which answer I picked, it'd be misconstrued. 

So bottom line, if you want something for the ide, create a module or create your own ide or modify the source codes for the ide.  Personally, I'd favor the module so it'd give people the option of not adding it in.  Everyone have their own ideas as to what's a perfect ide.  Not everyone is going to need widget2000 in their ide. 

Peace.

[Graeme]

To be more clear, this is what I am talking about.

I  personally hate the new Delphi IDE design (and so many other IDE's). I prefer the seperated windows design, and have the ability to dock windows that I feel are useful together. Why? Because I like to lay out my own windows on my desktop, depending in what development mode I am in (write code, debugging etc). With the separated window forms designer (not tabs), you can also have two designer forms side by side.

As far as I'm concerned, the best IDE design is what can be seen and done in MSEide. As a developer you have FULL CONTROL over the windows, layout, docking, etc. That is how it should be. If you want the MDI style, MSEide allows it, if you want the SDI style, MSEide allows it.

Also, I use Delphi XE on occasion, and I find it immensely frustrating. So too with Eclipse IDE. I'm not saying they are inherently bad, I'm just saying that I'm not used to them, thus they cause me lots of frustration and slow me down. Not so with Lazarus IDE or MSEide.

ps: When I moved to Lazarus IDE back in 2005 (from Delphi 7), I found Lazarus IDE frustrating too, but I think it is pretty damn good now.

[marcov]

I've already said that any progressive idea has a strong resistance between conservative population. 
Proved thousand times trough human's history.

That is the whole problem. That is all in your head. You interpret some remarks that both models have their merits as resistance. I'm sure that if you come up with a perfect docking solution it will be accepted in an hardbeat.

But that is the problem. You are providing nothing. No code, not even detail descriptions, just some screenshots of hacked IDEs. Pointless.

According to you, I've made a very nasty thing because I suggested some changes? Changes are not welcomed here?

No, it is merely pointed out several times that suggestions without backup are pointless, specially when they are like kicking in an open door since Lazarus is working on docking solutions.

[JuhaManninen]

As I wrote this would go on forever. Marco already answered one of his mails before I removed them.
Gosh thinks he is doing a favor for this project and nothing will change his mind. I have seen this before... Thus I will follow my decision and remove the posts. I may get hate mails myself but so be it then.

Positive news: Lazarus 1.4 IDE has a huge amount of improvements. Let's think of them for a change. This is a sub-set of them :
  http://wiki.freepascal.org/New_IDE_features_since#v1.4_.282015-04-22.29
They required fundamental changes and lots of refactoring in the code. Developers are exhausted after getting it ready and bug-free (at least I am).
Hey, designer now has Undo feature! It seems that many people didn't even notice it yet. There are hidden gems like the Checkbox boolean editor in OI, and so on and so on ...

Many things are still missing or are poorly implemented. It is a well known fact, there is no need to repeat it.
But more positive news are coming : Lazarus trunk has a configurable IDE Coolbar, brought to us by "GetMem".
There are other new developers, too. Sandro Cumerlato has made some high quality patches and is planning to do more. And there are others ...

Lazarus is popular. SourceForge has between 10000 and 20000 downloads per week constantly. In addition many people use Lazarus from Linux distro repos or use SVN directly.
The whole language Object Pascal is getting more popolar, too. Delphi has gained popularity again in recent years, after many years of decline.
Future looks bright.

A related thing: Hate mails against other competing projects, or FUD about how FPC/Lazarus developers are hostile to those projects, is very bad PR for this project. Those projects include Lazarus forks and for example Smart Studio.
FPC or Lazarus core developers have not written hostile comments about them. Some other people are writing FUD about such hostility. Repeated enough many times and people start to consider it true.
I think we have to publish an "official stance" for competing projects. The main message must be that we are NOT against them.

[Fred vS]

A related thing: Hate mails against other competing projects, or FUD about how FPC/Lazarus developers are hostile to those projects, is very bad PR for this project. Those projects include Lazarus forks and for example Smart Studio.
FPC or Lazarus core developers have not written hostile comments about them. Some other people are writing FUD about such hostility. Repeated enough many times and people start to consider it true.
I think we have to publish an "official stance" for competing projects. The main message must be that we are NOT against them.

Ha, ok,  so it will be fair if somebody of the LazTeam rectify the horrible topic =>
https://jonlennartaasenden.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/free-sparta-and-codetyphoon-violates-gpl/

Fre;D

[dmytron]

I don't know whether saying that some derivative of Lazarus is breaching GPL is a sign of hostility. Some are in fact breaching it. However, asking other to boycott them is hostility.

[marcov]

Ha, ok,  so it will be fair if somebody of the LazTeam rectify the horrible topic =>
https://jonlennartaasenden.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/free-sparta-and-codetyphoon-violates-gpl/

Scary article, no evidence quoted and even misspells the project's name.  I made a small comment on the site.

I don't know of CT really violates the GPL on a large scale, but currently the case against CT (even if it exists and legit) is fragmented in hary discussions on this forum, and at the very best "indications" that it is a mess.

IMHO people should be very careful to make accusations against CT, without having a rock solid list of grievances and proof. And more importantly never claim anything in the name of FPC/Lazarus, unless you are a legal representative of either one.

Keep in mind that GPL allows that the source is only delivered on request. The source not being online is therefore NOT a copyright violation. Only if you can prove he modifies the IDE (and not through the IDE plugin Interface) and make a formal request, and that request is denied, ONLY then it gets somewhat serious.

My (+/- year old) impression is that CT is a mess wrt transparancy but not really doing something illegal till proven otherwise. This lack of transparency is probably the CT's projects origin, as a private lazarus branch of a company.

Probably they haven't thought much about these things, and when pressed they simply submit the source as a big tarball. I doubt you'll make anything stick, since they don't have much to gain since it is a free project.

The only thing you can say for sure is that CT is not a team player (yet).

[ahiggins]

Can I just say as a user of Lazarus for the last 5/6 years, I'm very happy, I find it quick, clean and very straight forward to use. I feel with each release the project gets stronger and the end product better. I would just like to say thank you to everybody involved and I really do feel we need to focus on the positives more.  Just my two cents worth.

[JuhaManninen]

I must moderate also myself out of this thread because the topic changed.
See the new "Stance for hate mails and competing projects" thread.

[Gosh]

Ok I see that my messages had been removed just because moderator don't have the same way of thinking as I did. It is an excellent way to demonstrate democratic values of this forum.

I was and still I am member of many forums worldwide and I've never seen something like that. I've never been banned and my messages have never been deleted.

That's enough for me.

Thank to all good and normal people for discussion but this way of forum moderation is against my main principles. This is not a place where I want to discuss any more.


BTW you didn't delete post of a person which wrote that all Talibans are terrorists. It is a typical speech of hate. It is almost the same thing as to say that all citizens of a country are terrorists, criminals or something like that. I'm not a fan of talibans but I have introduced in that topic very well. It is a very conservative way of thinking which suggests that people have to live on the way as they did 14 centuries ago. That's why i wrote 'IT talibans' trying to describe a way of conservative thinking related with IDE design. If someone found this as offense I apologize myself. But it is not.

[Gosh]

Future looks bright.

 

[typo]

Well, if you don't intend to offend us and can have a more positive behaviour than this, why don't you accept my suggestion and post your idea on the Wiki?

[taazz]

Ok I see that my messages had been removed just because moderator don't have the same way of thinking as I did. It is an excellent way to demonstrate democratic values of this forum.

I was and still I am member of many forums worldwide and I've never seen something like that. I've never been banned and my messages have never been deleted.

That's enough for me.

Thank to all good and normal people for discussion but this way of forum moderation is against my main principles. This is not a place where I want to discuss any more.


BTW you didn't delete post of a person which wrote that all Talibans are terrorists. It is a typical speech of hate. It is almost the same thing as to say that all citizens of a country are terrorists, criminals or something like that. I'm not a fan of talibans but I have introduced in that topic very well. It is a very conservative way of thinking which suggests that people have to live on the way as they did 14 centuries ago. That's why i wrote 'IT talibans' trying to describe a way of conservative thinking related with IDE design. If someone found this as offense I apologize myself. But it is not.

1) Why is my habits conservative and yours not? As far as I know visual studio is as old as delphi 2007 yet I am a dinosaur and you are not? Why? What is so modern in visual studio and why would I care to implement your habits? Because you decided that they are modern for some reason?

2) You came here to direct and help us out of our middle age of IT by doing what? Insult us for our habits? Oh I know! we should believe you when you promise us younger user audience and implement your habits? What will happen if the user base is not going to change neither in number or average age? Will you pay us for all those hours of development? If not then why would we implement something we do not use in the first place? So you want to direst us in to the future? Sure go ahead implement what ever you think it is needed and donate it to the project we have our own visions and pipe dreams to waste our time in.

3) So the rest of us talibans are not normal? We are here to threaten you and chase you away?  Really when from the start I scream in your face stop being generic and be specific to avoid all this drama now I'm an ubnormal taliban on top of that? Thank you I now know what not to do.   

4) Becoming a "ME TOO" tool is not one of the goals of the project as I already said numerous times. Now if you are not even using pascal but only C then you are here only to play a role of a visionary that can lead us out of the middle ages in to a more modern era. With what? Stolen ideas? That is fascism you know. You believe that your habits are superior, you demand others to adopt them insulting them in the process and you are surprised that you got kicked in the teeth?

[Gosh]

Well, if you don't intend to offend us and can have a more positive behaviour than this, why don't you accept my suggestion and post your idea on the Wiki?

I didn't intend to answer here any more but I'd like to see WHERE I have offended 'you' or you? Things about 'IT Talibans' I already explained.

it is impossible to have more positive behavior when you have a moderators who don't allow any critics or any suggestion which is against their beliefs.  I tried to do something really good. I knew that there will be a lot of resistance (it is a very common reaction of 'crowd' to any newness). But I didn't expect that someone will delete my posts. I have spent some time to write that posts, person who deleted that posts doesn't appreciate my time. If someone doesn't appreciate my time, I don't want to have any relations with that person more.

And yes, I was more aggressive than I am but it is the only proper way to communicate with arrogant people.

I've been disappeared from here.   

P.S. I will only answer if someone find itself offended by my side. My discussion about new features is finished with deletion of my posts here.

[Gosh]

.
3) So the rest of us talibans are not normal? We are here to threaten you and chase you away?  Really when from the start I scream in your face stop being generic and be specific to avoid all this drama now I'm an ubnormal taliban on top of that? Thank you I now know what not to do.   

I apologize myself if I hurt you or anybody else We're simply not at the same frequency 
I'm also a hard taliban in some other things, for sure. For example, I'm still working on a PC with Win 98 installed