Lazarus IDE 1.4 RC2 docked: designing forms problem

[flamer0n]

I'm not sure if this is a default behaviour or a bug but I find it frustrating.
When using Lazarus IDE 1.4RC2 with anchor docking, the form being designed gets behind everything whatever you press outside the form (change a property of a component or try to click on component palette to drop a new component), so keeping my finger on F12 doesn't seem very appealing when designing forms and coding with lazarus.

[Windsurfer]

I noticed the same thing, and as a GNU/Linux user decided to use one workspace for the anchored desktop and another for form design. Perhaps this can also be done on Windows. It still needs a button or mouse click but is less cluttered.

[flamer0n]

I don't know but I'd rather have the form/sourceEditor switched only when I press F12 not otherwise

[JuhaManninen]

The form designer is not yet part of the AnchorDocking. Thus you should not use it if you have forms to design. It is not usable. It may be useful with non-GUI server or cmd-line code.

In fact I still don't know why so many people want to use docking. Some people are obsessed with it, saying that Lazarus is not usable without it.
Can somebody please explain me why docking is good, except for being fashionable of course.

[dmytron]

As for me, Delphi 7 was good but when I opened Delphi 2006, I couldn't get my hands off it. "Full docking" gives a feeling of stability, of solidity. Floating form designer looks... I'd say, untidy. Of course, in some way it's just a question of choice. After all, somebody loves helicopters, somebody loves Boeing-747. But for people who just want an easy IDE to program with (as you remember, part of the Delphi appeal was that it was very friendly to amateurs), for these people the feeling of stability is very important.

Yes, I'd say it's a psychological factor mainly. But many people who have liked Delphi maybe won't be so eager to learn Lazarus when they see it's still undocked.

Somebody else can add something he or she likes in full docking.

[garlar27]

In fact I still don't know why so many people want to use docking. Some people are obsessed with it, saying that Lazarus is not usable without it.
Can somebody please explain me why docking is good, except for being fashionable of course.

IMHO docking is good (I would be pleased if it works good) but is not a must have. I've lived 25 years without it and I can do what I do with or without docking.

I think that the best of docking is: customisation. You can have all you need in one form with your prefered layout (everybody likes it in a different way). Docking is good with high resolution screens and a problem with low res ones (it eats the vital screen space, though it use the space more efficiently than placing windows side by side).

I'm using anchordockingdsgn.lpk ATM at desing time. And no docking at run time (ATM, but in the near future I will need it, if I need it and is not available, I will have to adapt, improvise and keep going -as usual- ).

[marcov]

As for me, Delphi 7 was good but when I opened Delphi 2006, I couldn't get my hands off it. "Full docking" gives a feeling of stability, of solidity.

I never had that feeling. Contrary  I then extremely disliked it, because the designer had all kinds of weird rescaling behaviour, specially for Tframes.  But I did like the newer way of selecting components using text names instead of icons and with a list that you can quickly search. IMHO that was ten times more important in D2006 than the docking.

[flamer0n]

I like it better docked and it's a personal preference, just as liking some color or some kind of music... though I don't mind undocked windows either

[Martin_fr]

While I personally dont need/want docking, I acknowledge that as a matter of personal preference it is important.
And also that for people who have used it before, not having it is a change of some degree in the workflow, and that can be annoying.

So I agree it is a desirable feature, and I even agree that once a truly working version exists (apparently requires a contributor), it could be made default (even though I would personally uninstall it).

I wonder, how many features that are not strictly docking are part of the "I like to have docking".


The only one thing that I can see where docking helps is the ability of having several windows at the same location and access them via tabs. (.e.g. all designers in the same location / watches and eval and dbg-inspector in the same location).


--- The following are all *not* docking (they may or may not come with docking, but they do not require it, and could exist without)


Docking will snap the windows into position, so there is no space between. But that could be done for undocked windows to (some windowmanager may offer this)


Having a designer window, in which the designed form can be scrolled, is *NOT* docking.
You could have that with floating windows too. Without docking this feature (if active) could be hardcoded to be part of the source editor. A matter of taste, and implementing this feature.
The dependency here is not that docking *brings* this feature, but that docking *needs* this feature.


Having  windows shown depending on context (object inspector and palette only visible if designing / dbg windows only while running ...) is nothing to do with docking either.
IMHO however the ability to store several desktop layouts and activate them depending on context, is much more important than docking.


And finally using the IDE on a desktop stretched over more than one monitor, requires the IDE to be several windows (though you can have one dock-win on each monitor)


What else is there?

[taazz]

While I personally dont need/want docking, I acknowledge that as a matter of personal preference it is important.
And also that for people who have used it before, not having it is a change of some degree in the workflow, and that can be annoying.

So I agree it is a desirable feature, and I even agree that once a truly working version exists (apparently requires a contributor), it could be made default (even though I would personally uninstall it).

I wonder, how many features that are not strictly docking are part of the "I like to have docking".


The only one thing that I can see where docking helps is the ability of having several windows at the same location and access them via tabs. (.e.g. all designers in the same location / watches and eval and dbg-inspector in the same location).


--- The following are all *not* docking (they may or may not come with docking, but they do not require it, and could exist without)


Docking will snap the windows into position, so there is no space between. But that could be done for undocked windows to (some windowmanager may offer this)


Having a designer window, in which the designed form can be scrolled, is *NOT* docking.
You could have that with floating windows too. Without docking this feature (if active) could be hardcoded to be part of the source editor. A matter of taste, and implementing this feature.
The dependency here is not that docking *brings* this feature, but that docking *needs* this feature.


Having  windows shown depending on context (object inspector and palette only visible if designing / dbg windows only while running ...) is nothing to do with docking either.
IMHO however the ability to store several desktop layouts and activate them depending on context, is much more important than docking.


And finally using the IDE on a desktop stretched over more than one monitor, requires the IDE to be several windows (though you can have one dock-win on each monitor)


What else is there?

A window manager that supports anything more than simple snapping is a pain to use. Personally I always disable all those "enhanced" features when seen or change to a window manager that has them disabled by default. No, snapping the windows together does not minimize the screen usage since all the frames around the window are still visible and occupy space.

Everything you describe can be done with and with out docking. Docking is the process to do everything you describe using the mouse with the added ability to attach windows one inside the other or detach them in any layout you might need. Even the ability to remember the layout a user created is not part of the docking library it self, but an added ability that makes perfect sense to pack it with the docking library.


What you describe as docking is the non floating layout (that you do not like) which is not docking just one of the layouts you can have with docking. Lets not confuse usability with layout. Docking is an intuitive usability enhancement.

[Leledumbo]

I personally like docking when it's properly integrated including the form designer, which is not the case for anchor docking at the moment. KZDesktop (and FreeSparta) used to have it, but works fine only on Windows and implemented in kinda hackish way, not flexible enough as general docking solution.

I currently use anchordocking though, since the saving option can save any windows. I have no problem switching between forms and code with F12. And whenever I click a component from the palette, the form designer is automatically brought to front where I can directly drop. No idea whether it's just me (or my window manager) or is really an implemented feature.

[airpas]

to me full docking is better than layered ide  , switching every time between message , source , form designer is annoying especially when they are overlapped .
if its not good , why (c# , vb , delphi , NetBeans ,....) using it .

[taazz]

to me full docking is better than layered ide  , switching every time between message , source , form designer is annoying especially when they are overlapped .
if its not good , why (c# , vb , delphi , NetBeans ,....) using it .

I agree with you that having to switch between windows to see relevant information all the time is annoying especially when

1) there is not short cut key to bring any specific window you might need in front and you have to go hunting in menus to do it.
2) The default behavior of that window is when clicked to auto focus the editor hiding the window again.

this is one my anoyances  with lazarus at this point please choose a style and stick to it everywhere (and let me change it easily If I need to). By a single style I mean either single click opens or double click opens not single click on messages focuses the edit window and double click on the component window to focus the designer. single or double, pick one and stick with it everywhere. anything else is simple annoying as hell.

To be frank "single click to open" is annoying as hell I prefer double click to open/change focus and single click to select view tips etc.

As for the form designer I'm sorry but it is always hiden by the source window regardless of the layout (docked or floating). In the first case (floating layout) it is behind what ever window you where last using on the second case( docked layout) it is in a tab inside the edit window hidden from view by the code and in both cases you have to switch between design and code edit views.

[Basile B.]

I'm not sure if this is a default behaviour or a bug but I find it frustrating.
When using Lazarus IDE 1.4RC2 with anchor docking, the form being designed gets behind everything whatever you press outside the form (change a property of a component or try to click on component palette to drop a new component), so keeping my finger on F12 doesn't seem very appealing when designing forms and coding with lazarus.

A quick efficient improvement (as a temp workaround the issue) could be to make the designer style as fsStayOnTop.
A few monthes ago i tried to make a patch for this but didn't succeed. I believe this is because the designer form represents the final form in itself, while it would have to be parented in another one to make such a setting working.

In the facts, as a user (with AnchorDockingDsgn package setup), form designing represents a very small amount of the time spent in Laz so the small annoyance caused by this is very acceptable.( )

 

[Martin_fr]

To be frank "single click to open" is annoying as hell I prefer double click to open/change focus and single click to select view tips etc.

Menu Tools > Options > Environment / Desktop: "Prefer double-click over single-click"