FPC vs C#

[Leledumbo]

I also know people that claim the opposite, and came back to Delphi, citing deployment as a major reason.

Count me in the list

Generics is alright. Wish we had that in mode ObjFPC without specialization...

Err...how would the actual type be instantiated then?

[Laksen]

Like in Delphi mode?

[kapibara]

Interesting responses, thanks. I have too little experience with C# to try summarize, but by the comments it seems that the biggest thing C# has going for it is being promoted by MS, its tools and support. Not so much the features of the language.

Hopefully we can create equivalent apps with fpc & Lazarus? But maybe there are exceptions to that?

[taazz]

Interesting responses, thanks. I have too little experience with C# to try summarize, but by the comments it seems that the biggest thing C# has going for it is being promoted by MS, its tools and support. Not so much the features of the language.

Hopefully we can create equivalent apps with fpc & Lazarus? But maybe there are exceptions to that?

Wrong. How about silverlight, asp.net, ado.net, winforms, and other libraries that make this environment more feature rich than delphi, FPC/Lazarus even C/C++ those are what helps put the .NET in the list of must evaluate tools. The sad thing is that most libraries are windows only that is why mono does not have the same acceptance.

[Leledumbo]

Like in Delphi mode?

Oh, you're talking about the syntax, I thought it was the semantic. Actually, I prefer ObjFPC style generics because it saves a lot of typing angle brackets + generic types, both when creating and using the class.

Wrong. How about silverlight, asp.net, ado.net, winforms, and other libraries that make this environment more feature rich than delphi, FPC/Lazarus even C/C++ those are what helps put the .NET in the list of must evaluate tools.

Those aren't C# thing, they're .NET and can be coded in any .NET aware languages.

[taazz]

Like in Delphi mode?

Oh, you're talking about the syntax, I thought it was the semantic. Actually, I prefer ObjFPC style generics because it saves a lot of typing angle brackets + generic types, both when creating and using the class.

Wrong. How about silverlight, asp.net, ado.net, winforms, and other libraries that make this environment more feature rich than delphi, FPC/Lazarus even C/C++ those are what helps put the .NET in the list of must evaluate tools.

Those aren't C# thing, they're .NET and can be coded in any .NET aware languages.

well lcl is nothing more than a library but with out it the lazarus IDE is nothing more than a glorified text editor. You can't compare lazarus with C# if you do compare lazarus then you have to compare with .NET otherwise compare objfpc or delphi mode with c# but in that case productivity  discussion goes out the window too.

[Leledumbo]

But the main topic is about the language, not environment. Otherwise, the topic should be more than FPC vs C#

[Deepaak]

Interesting responses, thanks. I have too little experience with C# to try summarize, but by the comments it seems that the biggest thing C# has going for it is being promoted by MS, its tools and support. Not so much the features of the language.

Hopefully we can create equivalent apps with fpc & Lazarus? But maybe there are exceptions to that?

Yes, there are certain exception when it comes to (C#) or any other .net tools in compare with PASCAL

1. Framework must be distributed with the application.
2. Have to search many method to protect the source code of the program.

[avra]

Pascal advantages are clear to Pascal fans, so I will mention disadvantages.

What I miss with Delphi/FPC/Laz is that many times I hit the wall and find some lib or framework or tool/modeler/codegen for C/C#/Java but not for any Pascal flavor. All the initial advantage is lost and I have to waste time on something that non-Pascal developers don't have to. Some of this might be overcome with FPC+JVM+Eclipse, especially if you miss GC.

Thanks to the coming fall of Microsoft in the next few years, C# will slowly decline and JAVA will slowly rise. Mobile market and Android will also contribute to this trend.

Such an army of C# developers will not vanish over night, and even with Microsoft fall they will be able to use mono to switch to another platform, but I wouldn't put my money on C# if I had to gamble at this moment (although I personally prefer C# over Java).

[Gizmo]

I used Borland Delphi years ago, and then had to try my hand at C for academic reasons. Some years later, having migrated to Linux almost exclusively and finding C too hard and fiddly, I sought something like Borland Delphi for Linux, and discovered Lazarus and FPC. Better yet, the ease in which I can create cross platform tools that work not only on Linux but also on Windows and Mac put the FPC & Lazarus system top of the world in my book. People think I'm a wizard when in fact, I'm distinctly average - it's all thanks to FPC and Lazarus.

I can't get my head around why anyone would pay hundreds for anything else, when you're buying in to Microsoft specific development. I have encouraged dozens of programmers to try their hand with the FPC way of life (after rthey have asked me what I use to create my utilities) and several have migrated too it exclusively. 

I find it frustrating, actually, when I am asked about my language of choice, and people have this view that FP is not a serious language and seem to have an unconcious bias about it being like Visual Basic or something. Actions speak louder than words and once they see my software they realise there must be more to it to what their school lessons have had them believe, but still, its a hurdle I have to jump every time. Examples:

"Pascal? Oh, that's an old language. I've not heard of anyone using that for 20 years?", or
"Pascal, isn't that just for teaching?" or
"Pascal? That isn't very object orientated?" or
"Pascal? Do you need an interpretor for that?" and so on.

[marcov]

Pascal advantages are clear to Pascal fans, so I will mention disadvantages.

What I miss with Delphi/FPC/Laz is that many times I hit the wall and find some lib or framework or tool/modeler/codegen for C/C#/Java but not for any Pascal flavor. All the initial advantage is lost and I have to waste time on something that non-Pascal developers don't have to.

.. what all users of a non-mainstream tool must do. It has nothing to do with language. Mono can't run all C# code blindly either, since most will tie to windows systems in all kinds of ways.

Some of this might be overcome with FPC+JVM+Eclipse, especially if you miss GC.

IMHO that will be the worst of both worlds. Not entirely Java, and not entirely FPC. But even technically I don't understand what that solves. A JVM based FPC doesn't mean you can use arbitrary Java code. The interface between Java and FPC might be minimal, and existing classes might not be changed to base on Java libraries.

Thanks to the coming fall of Microsoft in the next few years, C# will slowly decline and JAVA will slowly rise. Mobile market and Android will also contribute to this trend.

Total speculation and IMHO very unlikely. If Java was meant to dominate, it would have done so by now.  Personally I'd bet on Oracle abandoning or siderailing Java before MS doing the same to C#/.NET

Such an army of C# developers will not vanish over night, and even with Microsoft fall they will be able to use mono to switch to another platform, but I wouldn't put my money on C# if I had to gamble at this moment (although I personally prefer C# over Java).

If MS dies, .NET dies. Mono is a sideshow.

[skalogryz]

...find some lib or framework or tool/modeler/codegen for C/C#/Java but not for any Pascal flavor. All the initial advantage is lost and I have to waste time on something that non-Pascal developers don't have to.

I'm clear about libs and frameworks.
But could you please make an example, of an actual missing tool/modeler/codegen?

It's not about a flame war, it's about creation of a very next tool/modeler/codegen for pascal.

[skalogryz]

Total speculation and IMHO very unlikely. If Java was meant to dominate, it would have done so by now.  Personally I'd bet on Oracle abandoning or siderailing Java before MS doing the same to C#/.NET

Are there trends to go to (from Java/.NET)?  functional languages? Javascript-only?

[marcov]

Total speculation and IMHO very unlikely. If Java was meant to dominate, it would have done so by now.  Personally I'd bet on Oracle abandoning or siderailing Java before MS doing the same to C#/.NET

Are there trends to go to (from Java/.NET)?  functional languages? Javascript-only?

I think it is the same as happened with native languages. When bytecode languages emerged they mostly found a sweet spot on serverside web, because the webserver plugin could easier manage them.

So the question is not what the next language thing will be, but what the next big thing in IT is that really can employ vast armies of programmers, if it favours certain language principles and what development system is proposed by the biggest player in that new market.

Currently IT desperately wants to believe mobile can save it from contraction long term. I'm not really sure that is the case. At least not for the software people.

To concretely answer your proposed cases:

- functional languages: have been around and had staunch proponents for ages, mostly in math departments.  Closures like construct being easier to divide over threads makes some people believe the next big thing is functional. I don't think so, simply because fully functional programming is too hard to introduce large scale. I think it will be experiments like LINQ (which nevertheless can be useful in domain specific cases, I just don't think it is really a big general programming advantage) and adding some form of continuation to nearly every existing language. Even Delphi has anonymous functions. I think the rest of functional languages will stay in university math departments and their startups.

- Javascript: the darling of mobile. Seems to replace "html" as earlier buzzword for relatively low grade apps. Might carve out a niche for itself if mobile apps reach the critical point (like websites a few years ago) were everybody and their butcher wants an own one(even though they are not much more than an online Business Card). Still, online retail is much bigger nowadays, and apps as store frontends might be a significant market. But OTOH I don't think more involved (or security needing) apps like that will be JS.

[garlar27]

I find it frustrating, actually, when I am asked about my language of choice, and people have this view that FP is not a serious language and seem to have an unconcious bias about it being like Visual Basic or something. Actions speak louder than words and once they see my software they realise there must be more to it to what their school lessons have had them believe, but still, its a hurdle I have to jump every time. Examples:

"Pascal? Oh, that's an old language. I've not heard of anyone using that for 20 years?", or
"Pascal, isn't that just for teaching?" or
"Pascal? That isn't very object orientated?" or
"Pascal? Do you need an interpretor for that?" and so on.

The most hillarious:
Once some one whispered to me: "How does it feel to program using a death language?"