Object Pascal decline?

[marcov]

In short, I think you need an Arthur :-(

IMHO? Proper market survey.

[tudi_x]

I think languages that rapidly became adopted in the last years are the ones that had a web framework built on top (ex. Ruby on Rails for Ruby, Django for Python, so many frameworks for Javascript).

What I see is enterprise products moving to a web front end for interacting with the end user.
A web framework would allow obtaining immediate results on an easy learning curve.
This web framework should have basic functionality like:
- routing
- user authentication
- user roles
- pagination
- easy interaction with Javascript code
- REST

I am a newbie in Lazarus - I was not able to deliver web solutions therefore started learning Ruby on Rails.

[janvb]

But I think what we did wrong was marketing. We have yet to have any substancial marketing at all. Like most programmers we tend to think that good coders will see just how awesome our system is -- but fact is people stick to cool websites like glue.

Your only error is probably that you underestimate how long time it takes to establish a development tool unless you have a shitload of money.

I would also suggest that you provide it free for development purposes and only request a license if they make commercial products. LGPL/Commercial license is also worth considering.

[marcov]

I think languages that rapidly became adopted in the last years are the ones that had a web framework built on top (ex. Ruby on Rails for Ruby, Django for Python, so many frameworks for Javascript).

Javascript's sole raison d'etre is being tied to the browser, the rest is came later because of that exclusive reason (that got reinforced by Steve Jobs when he banned Flash)

Python emerged primarily as an unix system administration language. It is slowly being supplanted as application language (e.g. the various distribution's package managers) simply because it is slow.

I do agree with Ruby being linked heavily to Rails though, but its growth is also waning because of scaling problems, and not exactly delivering on its promises.

[minesadorada]

Your only error is probably that you underestimate how long time it takes to establish a development tool unless you have a shitload of money.

I would also suggest that you provide it free for development purposes and only request a license if they make commercial products. LGPL/Commercial license is also worth considering.

+1 to that.  It's the modern way to make money.  Who would have thought Google, Facebook or Twitter were commercial products?

The website is impressive, and  the product looks exciting.  I won't pay $150 to learn the dialect and develop an HTML5 app.

People want stuff for free.  It's a software playground, but the serious players are willing to pay -  the pro version is a trivial expense for a commercial product.

Hobby programmers like me simply promote products - why should we pay to play and publicize the app via the OS community?  Limited apps are not good enough.

[snorkel]

But we are banned by embarcadero, so we must have done something right
They even threatened to poll their funding for PASCon if we were allowed to present out product. I dont know what is wrong with them, but that's how they treat us. As a threat.

They are aholes just like most of team b....
I quit using delphi in 2012 and don't miss it at all.  there are just a few 3rd party controls I would like to see support Lazarus.

I will have to check out your product as developing web apps the traditional way kind of sucks.

Does your product fully support Lazarus?
EDIT, oh I see now it's a fully stand alone app.

[lainz]

There's something like http://coffeescript.org/ for FreePascal? something like a little language that compiles into FreePascal.

[qdos]

Smart Mobile Studio is completely independent.
It has it's own IDE and its own compiler.
So you write "object pascal" and the compiler generates javascript.

But unlike other "JS codegens" our gives you OOP. And as you probably know, javascript doesnt have that. It is prototype based, which is shit to work with.

Here you can do normal inheritance, interfaces and roughly 90% of the object pascal language.
And its real OOP, because we sculpt the VMT (virtual method table) in Js for each object. so there is no bloat and no "pattern" based compilation. Compare our codegen to, say, blitzbasic and you will see just how advanced our codegen is. Its far ahead of typescript even, which was written by Anders Hejlsberg.

You also have an RTL which is adapted to HTML5, so you can write REAL controls that run in the browser.
So you have full access to the underlying Js object. All TW3Components have a handle, which you can access directly:

Code: [Select]

FMyObject.Handle.style["color"]:=ColorToHtmlColor(clGreen);
The major difference is that HTML elements are created at runtime by your code, you dont create a html construct and then attach code to it.
This means that your components always knows the handle to the HTML element, which is much faster to operate on (as opposed to finding an element, like jQuery does).

So now you can do cool stuff like:

Code: [Select]

TMyControl = Class(Tw3CustomControl)
 // implement your control here
end;
And use class helpers (qtxlibrary, a unit with effects) for effects:

Code: [Select]

FMyHeader:=TMyheader.Create(display.view);
Fmyheader.fxFadeIn(0.4);
That is a hell of a lot easier than writing 200+ lines of JS code to achieve the same thing.

Inheritance really makes all the difference!
Flash is dead -- and object pascal is there to pick up where they failed. Pure HTML5, no dependencies and a modern, polished dialect based on rock solid object pascal.

[Mike.Cornflake]

In short, I think you need an Arthur :-(

IMHO? Proper market survey.

That sounds like a Cargo Cult :-(

I was too subtle with my metaphors.   Merlin=effective developer.  Arthur=effective businessman.

A proper market survey can be one tool the businessman uses.  Not always required, I was part of one successful business that did no market survey, we already knew our market.  And don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that market surveys have their place just the same as: business plans, effective marketing, technical and corporate alliances, managing sales channels, fund raising, personnel management, accounting, branding and all those other elements of the business world.  I'm just refusing to say which of these are more important than the others.  Two reasons.  1.  I'm no business man.  2.  To say one is more important than the others is to implicitly deny the others their place.

What I'm saying is that good developers don't always make good businessmen.  All the success stories I've seen involved a division of the two elements (and had effective people in each role).

[marcov]

IMHO? Proper market survey.

That sounds like a Cargo Cult :-(

Looked it up, and I assume your remark tries to tie market survey to Dilbert like corporate cultures.

It was not meant as such, and it also wasn't necessary meant as something that must be done externally. Merely to take a hard and deep look at the market before you start something.

Really revisit, and don't rehash the old "we already know our market". And ask "would you buy this product now", not "would this product be a good idea".  People are much less likely to answer yes to the first than to the latter.

Note that this sounded as a new productline, I assume it was not targeted solely at existing customers.

I was too subtle with my metaphors.   Merlin=effective developer.  Arthur=effective businessman.

I got that. I'm not really a believer in such idealised roles. Even in rare cases that they apply, they last relatively shortly. It is more a Silicon Valley VC toy to try to manage startups which seem to be in a perpetual startup state.

A proper market survey can be one tool the businessman uses.  Not always required, I was part of one successful business that did no market survey, we already knew our market.

But this was about a new, pascal based web product. IOW, new market. So it applies here more than the other bits you named.

The development tool market is treacherous, specially because languages and tools have erected such near-religious divisions between programmers. Often people preach what they like, but use what brings in the bacon. (and often they are NOT the same)

And don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that market surveys have their place just the same as: business plans, effective marketing, technical and corporate alliances, managing sales channels, fund raising, personnel management, accounting, branding and all those other elements of the business world.  I'm just refusing to say which of these are more important than the others.  Two reasons.  1.  I'm no business man.  2.  To say one is more important than the others is to implicitly deny the others their place.

The discussion was why a product had less than expected sales, and all talk was about properties of the product, not the market it was targeted at. That's all that I tried to hint at.

Assuming the company was too small to really create a market out of nowhere, I think the conclusion that the market was simply not there is warranted, and as such the remark that market survey would have been good IMHO was also.

[Mike.Cornflake]

IMHO? Proper market survey.

That sounds like a Cargo Cult :-(

Looked it up, and I assume your remark tries to tie market survey to Dilbert like corporate cultures.

Scott Adams is probably referencing the phenomena.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult
(more specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult#Pacific_cults_of_World_War_II)

Essentially natives who had never had contact with the western world saw supplies dropped from planes during a war, which started a new religion.  They built what they thought were runways to attract the attention of the "gods".

Your entire response was "Proper market survey", so without any context you were saying "If you do market survey, you will get sales", which misses by a wide mark that a decent market survey is only one tool in the process of building up a business.  Your expanded response adds a lot of detail to that first post.

EDIT: But I also it feels like it misses another point I was trying to make.  @qdos has already sunk 4 years of his life into his business.  The time for market survey has gone.  He needs someone with the ability to make his dream come true.

It was not meant as such, and it also wasn't necessary meant as something that must be done externally. Merely to take a hard and deep look at the market before you start something.

Thanks for the clarification    As a *first* step, I would agree with you.  There's so much more required though...

I was too subtle with my metaphors.   Merlin=effective developer.  Arthur=effective businessman.

I got that. I'm not really a believer in such idealised roles. Even in rare cases that they apply, they last relatively shortly. It is more a Silicon Valley VC toy to try to manage startups which seem to be in a perpetual startup state.

I strongly disagree, but I'm approaching this on the basis on my own experiences in the UK, Australia and Denmark, you're approaching this from the basis of your experience.  It's a big world, I see no issue with the disparity and I don't doubt there are successful businesses started from scratch by developers or technicians (I've just only ever bumped into one [1]).  In fact I really hope there a slew of people in this forum who chime in with "well, I've started a successful business without a partner".

There's always the chance that I'm coloured by my own experiences, and now ONLY see the Merlin/Arthur cases.   Certainly, when I meet a new people in meetings I make a point of identifying the technicians.  They're the people on my own wave length.

A proper market survey can be one tool the businessman uses.  Not always required, I was part of one successful business that did no market survey, we already knew our market.

But this was about a new, pascal based web product. IOW, new market. So it applies here more than the other bits you named.

I'll be more specific, sorry about that.  Our market didn't exist either, but we knew who we were after.  I was writing software for an industry that up to that point in time had only gathered data on pen/paper so a software buying market didn't exist.  Heck, when we started we didn't even really know if our potential market would be willing to take PC's offshore.  However, we had the vision of what the future could be, and I was working for a businessman with the ability to generate entirely new markets and an amazing ability to coordinate a series of partnerships with other companies/individuals that helped ensure our success.  I could never have achieved what he did, and he could never have produced any software.  And we would have both wasted time had we tried to learn each other's skill-sets.  (And we both worked a ridiculous amount of hours in those early years, each concentrating on our own areas)

(And one of us now lives in Seattle living the life of Riley as a venture capitalist, and the other is currently bobbing around in the north sea 6 months a year working 84 hours a day - I'll let you guess which is which )

But these are minor details that detract from what I think we're both trying to say: The big picture here is to succeed you need to have a solid grounding in business processes. 

So it applies here more than the other bits you named.

<double take>  Wait, what?   Are you really saying that a Market survey is more important than anything else in ensuring a successful business? 

When I was taught chess, I was asked what the most important move was.  Which is the one that required my full attention, the one I couldn't afford to make a mistake with?  After running through every move I could think of I was told the answer.  "The next move, always your very next move".  (When I was coached Badminton mind you I was asked the same question - could just be an Australian thing )

[1] EDIT:  TWO, I've only met TWO successful businesses started by technicians.  Sorry Stu, if you ever stop by here, how could I overlook you

[marcov]

  now ONLY see the Merlin/Arthur cases.   

Probably an Anglo Saxon thing. I have to think deep to actually link the names to something.

Certainly, when I meet a new people in meetings I make a point of identifying the technicians.  They're the people on my own wave length.

So do I. But I've learned over time to look over the divisions.

  [The big picture here is to succeed you need to have a solid grounding in business processes. 

Amen to that.

So it applies here more than the other bits you named.

<double take>  Wait, what?   Are you really saying that a Market survey is more important than anything else in ensuring a successful business? 

No, I didn't. I am really saying it in the context of a new product(-line) to a probably new audience. And Market reconnaissance might be a better term. Anything other than making product first, finding customers later.

When I was taught chess, I was asked what the most important move was.  Which is the one that required my full attention, the one I couldn't afford to make a mistake with?  After running through every move I could think of I was told the answer.  "The next move, always your very next move".  (When I was coached Badminton mind you I was asked the same question - could just be an Australian thing )

Learning chess (by my parents) was pretty uneventful. Developing it further was more interesting.

When I furthered chess, I got my @ss kicked. A lot. It didn't help that our secondary school hosted the Dutch youth champion, and if your own strategy is basically to sit it out without big mistakes till the other party makes one, you loose from real players. A lot :-)

[Mike.Cornflake]

Learning chess (by my parents) was pretty uneventful. Developing it further was more interesting.

When I furthered chess, I got my @ss kicked. A lot. It didn't help that our secondary school hosted the Dutch youth champion, and if your own strategy is basically to sit it out without big mistakes till the other party makes one, you loose from real players. A lot :-)

lol  I hear you :-)

I learnt the most by playing someone who would only ever play if there was money involved :-)   And when I thought I knew how to play, I got my @ss handed to me by a drunk (again who would only play for money) who turned out to once be the under 16 county champion for the area.  (And don't get me started on the uncanny ability of elderly Filipino galley crew who play chess with pieces carved out of broom handles on boards scratched onto tables.  I enjoy chess, but apparently I'm never going to stop having my @ss handed to me )

[vfclists]

When I started making Smart Mobile Studio I was faced, believe it or not, with a lot of resistance from the Delphi community. Everyone said it could not be done, and they were shocked when my compiled code ran rings around Delphi's canvas code.
Point is, there is a lot of resistance in the pascal community also which must be corrected.

It's almost like we are used to being "the best" for so long, that we never really noticed that C# and all the other stuff came up behind us and surpassed us in many ways.

I must admit I am a bit let down by the pascal community. 4 years of my life was invested in that compiler/ide, and our pascal RTL makes Flash and typescript look like sad dinosaurs. People think pascal and the web would be a horrible match, but with the adjustments we did to the language - it works  a hell of lot better than other languages. Eric Grange, who has worked extensively on the compiler really deserves an applause for his work on this. He has done what Embarcadero failed to do, yet he did it alone and without resources. Like we all did. We have no financial backing what so ever.

SMS is also the only product out there (within the JS/HTML5 support type products) with the RTL written in the language itself. Most HTML5/JS systems have a fixed "core" of methods which they map to some JS construct. We have written everything in Smart itself. Except ofcourse for the snippets used by the compiler for symbols and expressions.

But I think what we did wrong was marketing. We have yet to have any substancial marketing at all. Like most programmers we tend to think that good coders will see just how awesome our system is -- but fact is people stick to cool websites like glue.
jQuery is trivial compared to our RTL. Yet they enjoy millions of users for something I could slap together over the weekend using object pascal. Its very sad to see -- especially when you consider the potential for evolution of our language and the way we write programs.

A programming language is after all, a method of thinking and problem solving. And this is why i hate some of the modern languages, because they dont teach kids to think - but to avoid problems!
C# is great, but at the end of the day - it teaches students to ignore memory and that they dont need to understand the finer concepts of programming.

What object pascal brings to the table is a method of thought and a school of thought which has stood the test of time for over 20 years - on how to build solid software and solve problems of software engineering

I just want to make a few points about the promotion of Smart Mobile Studio.


1. I feel that you need to make both the compiler and the RTL free. Having the language without a good RTL is no good as very few users will be willing to write libraries from scratch.
If people can hand code an app using source code alone, and get the same results that will make them willing to buy the whole package. It is like how Xamarin got to build up their business.

A lot of developers who offer unrestricted shareware say that the proportion of people who commit to the paid version from the free version is low, about 5% or less and it is basically fixed, and is probably a fixed percentage on account of the personality type within the human population that are willing to pay.

You could also include a restriction saying that if the app or site is commercialized a license would be needed,  even if it is just the Basic one, and also a clause preventing it from  being used to develop a tool competing with SMS. Of course a lot of people will cheat, but higher numbers will mean a higher income and more exposure.

Another option is to require a notice stating that products built with the free version should have a notice saying they were built with Smart Pascal (a different name may be better, but it is still Pascal anyway), advertise Smart Studio, or allow advertising from your own ad network or something. You can even add the option which requires extensions to the RTL to be GPL'd or the kind of thing that Qt and Sencha do. The options are limitless, but as Mike.Cornflake suspects, you sound like the kind who prefers to develop rather than handle marketing issues so you should let others handle these complicated stuff which diverts you from your main passion.

2. Licensing on multiple computers - One of the great benefits of free tools and OSs like Linux is that you can spin up a number of VPSs without worrying about licenses and throw them away when you don't need them. I don't know how well SMS works this way, and how it would work if combined with Wine.

3. As I said earlier Wine compatiblity is important, but this probably requires testing by other people. The issue is whether licensing problems will kick in.

In short make the compiler and the RTL free and let the hand coding masochists boost and raise the profile of the product. Ruby got a long way without having any IDEs, and there a probably a lot of Ruby houses that earn more in a month from consultancy than Smart Studio's sales so far.

[flywire]

 

I wish Lazarus had a nice interface "all in one window"... just like Gimp does. ...