Recent

Author Topic: Integrated Help TOC  (Read 18314 times)

TurboRascal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 672
  • "Good sysadmin. Bad programmer."™
Integrated Help TOC
« on: August 17, 2012, 11:53:28 pm »
I'm really delighted how smoothly the chm help works out of the box in Lazarus 1.x -     all FPC and LCL documentation is included so practically every keyword gets proper context based help i lhelp. There is only one thing I see as a glitch, how the Help menu works. Namely, there is only the Online Help command which opens up a browser with a document linking to the web based documentation. There is no other Help command which would open the local help and it's the only help item which doesn't seem to be configurable for opening chm help. There already exists toc.chm which seems to me as a perfect candidate for opening from the help menu if one wishes to browse all the help chms...

This puzzles me; why is it so, is there a workaround for it, and will it change anytime soon?
Regards, ArNy the Turbo Rascal
-
"The secret is to give them what they need, not what they want." - Scotty, STTNG:Relics

marcov

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12706
  • FPC developer.
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 12:32:38 am »
Afaik the lazarus (IDE) help is not available as CHM.

Only FPC help and LCL are available.

gentoc (the script that creates the toc.chm index) , works with CHMs only.

BigChimp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5740
  • Add to the wiki - it's free ;)
    • FPCUp, PaperTiger scanning and other open source projects
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2012, 12:46:03 am »
Marco, I don't see how your post answers Arny's question? Or perhaps I misunderstood him.

Arny, do you mean: the help menu has Help/Online Help which opens a browser, but no other option, say Help/Offline Help, which opens the CHM help files?
So the only way to open CHM files is by pressing F1?

If that's your question, I think that's a very valid one. I'd expect a Help/Help menu (which could perhaps be implemented internally by the chmhelppkg package???). The Help/Online Help button should be below that...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 01:24:44 am by BigChimp »
Want quicker answers to your questions? Read http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Faq#What_is_the_correct_way_to_ask_questions_in_the_forum.3F

Open source including papertiger OCR/PDF scanning:
https://bitbucket.org/reiniero

Lazarus trunk+FPC trunk x86, Windows x64 unless otherwise specified

TurboRascal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 672
  • "Good sysadmin. Bad programmer."™
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2012, 01:13:25 am »
Afaik the lazarus (IDE) help is not available as CHM.

Only FPC help and LCL are available.

gentoc (the script that creates the toc.chm index) , works with CHMs only.

Yes, there is no IDE help itself, but still it would be great to be able to open the existing FPC and LCL documentation which is available, and opening toc.chm which points to those documents from the Help menu would be quite nice.

Marco, I don't how your post answers Arny's question? Or perhaps I misunderstood him.

Arny, do you mean: the help menu has Help/Online Help which opens a browser, but no other option, say Help/Offline Help, which opens the CHM help files?
So the only way to open CHM files is by pressing F1?

If that's you question, I think that's a very valid one. I'd expect a Help/Help menu (which could perhaps be implemented internally by the chmhelppkg package???). The Help/Online Help button should be below that...

That's right, that is exactly the problem I'm addressing...

BTW, toc.chm doesn't point to everything but LCL documentation, although it is titled "Free Pascal/Lazarus documentation overview"... It would be great if that link is also added and a Help menu command in IDE implemented to call it.
Regards, ArNy the Turbo Rascal
-
"The secret is to give them what they need, not what they want." - Scotty, STTNG:Relics

BigChimp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5740
  • Add to the wiki - it's free ;)
    • FPCUp, PaperTiger scanning and other open source projects
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2012, 01:24:08 am »
BTW, toc.chm doesn't point to everything but LCL documentation, although it is titled "Free Pascal/Lazarus documentation overview"... It would be great if that link is also added and a Help menu command in IDE implemented to call it.
See this bug:
http://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=22110
which I think should address what you want: i.e. pressing F1 or help should give you all help files not only the file associated with the keyword under the cursor when pressing F1.
Want quicker answers to your questions? Read http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Faq#What_is_the_correct_way_to_ask_questions_in_the_forum.3F

Open source including papertiger OCR/PDF scanning:
https://bitbucket.org/reiniero

Lazarus trunk+FPC trunk x86, Windows x64 unless otherwise specified

TurboRascal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 672
  • "Good sysadmin. Bad programmer."™
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2012, 02:48:13 am »
Actually, I'm quite ok with the F1 behavior as context help, that works similar to the Delphi's help system. I just miss accessing a help index/contents from IDE, in any way, be it by a key combo or a menu command...
Regards, ArNy the Turbo Rascal
-
"The secret is to give them what they need, not what they want." - Scotty, STTNG:Relics

BigChimp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5740
  • Add to the wiki - it's free ;)
    • FPCUp, PaperTiger scanning and other open source projects
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2012, 07:20:49 am »
I understand. My point was that having lhelp open all chm files will at least give you an overview of all available help files, whether you press F1 for context-sensitive help or a Help key combo or menu command, which shouldn't.

This way, searching for concepts that may exist in another (or multiple) chm file is possible

To me there isn't much difference between the toc.chm and directly showing the help files in lhelp as the former only shows the titles and a brief description of the files, but I can understand you'd want to see it.... and of course, opening toc.chm if not doing context-sensitive help makes sense.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 10:30:16 am by BigChimp »
Want quicker answers to your questions? Read http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Faq#What_is_the_correct_way_to_ask_questions_in_the_forum.3F

Open source including papertiger OCR/PDF scanning:
https://bitbucket.org/reiniero

Lazarus trunk+FPC trunk x86, Windows x64 unless otherwise specified

marcov

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12706
  • FPC developer.
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2012, 12:28:29 pm »
Marco, I don't see how your post answers Arny's question? Or perhaps I misunderstood him.

The point is that the current CHM help distribution is mainly crafted for the textmode IDE. Since the lookup function worked with lazarus too, it is now also integrated in lazarus.

Progress on IDE help ( non FPC/LCL/fpdoc) has been slow. (if not outright dead)

The bit about the TOC file is just background info. Toc.chm is the main TOC of the textmode IDE help (since it can't blend TOCs atm, this is the workaround). It is in the distribution for the textmode IDE, not for Lazarus

Quote

Arny, do you mean: the help menu has Help/Online Help which opens a browser, but no other option, say Help/Offline Help, which opens the CHM help files?
So the only way to open CHM files is by pressing F1?

I took Amy's question as "what would be needed to have an unified help menu", not as "can there be an additional item"
 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 12:34:21 pm by marcov »

TurboRascal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 672
  • "Good sysadmin. Bad programmer."™
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2012, 02:25:42 pm »
I took Amy's question as "what would be needed to have an unified help menu", not as "can there be an additional item"

Well, that really seems the simplest solution to me - every other help item in Options (the context-sensitive ones) have the ability to open either a html or a chm file. Only the one called from the Help menu does not, so I guess it would be the quickest solution for all-chm help...
Regards, ArNy the Turbo Rascal
-
"The secret is to give them what they need, not what they want." - Scotty, STTNG:Relics

BigChimp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5740
  • Add to the wiki - it's free ;)
    • FPCUp, PaperTiger scanning and other open source projects
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2012, 02:39:14 pm »
So Arny, your point would presumably be:
1. change the Help/Online Help menu entry to Help/Help
2. let that open the toc.chm
3. let the toc.chm show not only all chms but also a link to the online help page

Marco's point: the existing toc.chm is meant for the textmode IDE, so presumably a new toc.chm specific for Lazarus will need to be generated/distributed?!?

Sorry, but I like some things to be spelled out... it helps prevent confusion... and... it helps make it something ripe for a bugreport then ;)
Want quicker answers to your questions? Read http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Faq#What_is_the_correct_way_to_ask_questions_in_the_forum.3F

Open source including papertiger OCR/PDF scanning:
https://bitbucket.org/reiniero

Lazarus trunk+FPC trunk x86, Windows x64 unless otherwise specified

marcov

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12706
  • FPC developer.
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2012, 09:48:01 pm »
Quote
Sorry, but I like some things to be spelled out...

IMHO that is a commendable quality :-)

Marco's point: the existing toc.chm is meant for the textmode IDE, so presumably a new toc.chm specific for Lazarus will need to be generated/distributed?!?

The toc.chm generating tool could be extended to get a template passed by cmdline instead of hardcoding it. Then a different title/logo and additional link would be doable.

TurboRascal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 672
  • "Good sysadmin. Bad programmer."™
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 02:56:11 am »
So Arny, your point would presumably be:
1. change the Help/Online Help menu entry to Help/Help
2. let that open the toc.chm
3. let the toc.chm show not only all chms but also a link to the online help page

Marco's point: the existing toc.chm is meant for the textmode IDE, so presumably a new toc.chm specific for Lazarus will need to be generated/distributed?!?

Sorry, but I like some things to be spelled out... it helps prevent confusion... and... it helps make it something ripe for a bugreport then ;)

In essence that's it except that I'd be quite satisfied even if it shows the current toc.chm. It misses the link to lcl.chm though, so I guess that might be one change which would be desirable, albeit not necessary.

Also I don't understand what online help page you refer to, there is only that html doc you get when you click Online Help, and it doesn't really show anything but links to the online versions of help already included in chms. In essence all that is needed is something similar to that page that actually points to the chms instead of the web, and the curent "online help" page would be unnecessary anymore. The only "online help" link in the Help menu could be one pointing to the wiki since that is the best online help source besides the references which are already in the chms...

Of course, there could be another option of IDE help which is not present as Marco pointed out, but at some time someone will hopefully write something...

So this might be my proposition for possible Help menu items:
  • IDE Help/Manual - pointing to an IDE chm help or perhaps simply a PDF manual
  • Help contents - pointing to a toc.chm (current or a new one) which further points to the already present reference chms
  • Online help - pointing to the Wiki
Regards, ArNy the Turbo Rascal
-
"The secret is to give them what they need, not what they want." - Scotty, STTNG:Relics

BigChimp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5740
  • Add to the wiki - it's free ;)
    • FPCUp, PaperTiger scanning and other open source projects
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 04:02:29 am »
Sure, a PDF manual. Mr Feature Creep ;) Next, you'll want it searchable, cross platform, with context-sensitive help - hey, perhaps a bit like the chm viewer we have now ;)

(More seriously, having the chms as pdf would be nice - and they already exist for the FPC part of things. Presumably you could create an lcl.pdf using fpdoc - though on Linux only)

Also I don't understand what online help page you refer to, there is only that html doc you get when you click Online Help
Yes, that's the one that appears after you press Help/Online Help, right?

If you would like your proposition implemented, I'd suggest you raise an issue in the bugtracker...
Want quicker answers to your questions? Read http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Faq#What_is_the_correct_way_to_ask_questions_in_the_forum.3F

Open source including papertiger OCR/PDF scanning:
https://bitbucket.org/reiniero

Lazarus trunk+FPC trunk x86, Windows x64 unless otherwise specified

marcov

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12706
  • FPC developer.
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 01:18:11 pm »
In my previous message the last line somehow was omitted.

It was about http://svn.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/trunk/gentoc.pp?root=docs&view=log being a simple script. It will also generate an entry for the LCL and lazutils (the latter since yesterday) when run in a directory with these in them.

To make it more dynamical, one could expand it with the option of a template or something.  (now it constructs the html by hand, since it is so simple, but it could be done using a template) and a file with filename - descriptions to override the hardcoded ones.

It is very, very simple code.

---------

A LCL pdf is possible I think. But the major problem with LCL.* is not if it is searchable etc, but its contents. The last time I checked, not even all description per unit in the toplevel TOC were filled in.


BigChimp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5740
  • Add to the wiki - it's free ;)
    • FPCUp, PaperTiger scanning and other open source projects
Re: Integrated Help TOC
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 01:41:01 pm »
In my previous message the last line somehow was omitted.

It was about http://svn.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/trunk/gentoc.pp?root=docs&view=log being a simple script. It will also generate an entry for the LCL and lazutils (the latter since yesterday) when run in a directory with these in them.

To make it more dynamical, one could expand it with the option of a template or something.  (now it constructs the html by hand, since it is so simple, but it could be done using a template) and a file with filename - descriptions to override the hardcoded ones.

It is very, very simple code.
Nice. Let's hope it gets used by the Laz devs when generating the docs ;)
About the descriptions: you mention templates might be used, but couldn't you inspect the actual chm and extract the title from it in some way?

A LCL pdf is possible I think. But the major problem with LCL.* is not if it is searchable etc, but its contents. The last time I checked, not even all description per unit in the toplevel TOC were filled in.
I disagree with the Michael Van Canneyt school of "we don't add documentation to the PDF until the entire unit is documented". I'd rather have a partially filled document that invites people to add content than nothing. Of course, if the amount of content is extremely low, it would look a bit silly, but I'd think the lcl has a lot of documentation already.
Additionally, even listing the bare function/class names has sense: because these names mean something, it will help people find functionality they need.
That's actually one of my pet peeves with the FPC packages documentation: how is one to know there is e.g. a zip implementation if it isn't mentioned?

(Disclaimer: below is one of those "it's wrong and it should be fixed just not by me because I don't know how or what to fix exactly" rants, I know. Sorry for that, and I do appreciate the hard work that has gone into help. It's just that I think it somehow should be easier)

Apart from that, perhaps it really is time to modify the online help web pages so that users can add/edit missing documentation using their browser (as I think Michael suggested some time ago in one of the mailing lists). Presumably the chms can be changed to add a "go online to edit this page" link to the bottom of each help page...

To me, despite the huge amount of work done on the fpdoc system, editing help and especially creating new help isn't that straightforward or intuitive. How to call the package name? Why is the help content called a descripton? Why can't you drag and drop links from e.g. code?
Perhaps improvements in the Lazarus doc editor could also be made... such as: run your edits through fpdoc/xmllint to see if the resulting code makes sense - e.g. link typos are either not there or are on purpose (i.e. links to as yet undocumented features)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 01:43:05 pm by BigChimp »
Want quicker answers to your questions? Read http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Lazarus_Faq#What_is_the_correct_way_to_ask_questions_in_the_forum.3F

Open source including papertiger OCR/PDF scanning:
https://bitbucket.org/reiniero

Lazarus trunk+FPC trunk x86, Windows x64 unless otherwise specified

 

TinyPortal © 2005-2018