Lazarus compatible Linux ?

[zacheus]

Hello,

Why is it impossible to obtain the same effects under Linux and Windows ?
Ex.

• Create and change the Color and TextColor of a disabled TEdit : With Windows : OK but with Linux : resolved with an improbable do-it-yourself.
  
• HideCaret in a ReadOnly TMemo. With Windows : easy. With Linux : I still search.
  

I know well that the management of messages is different in 2 OS but why the problem is not adjusted with Linux ? Why Lazarus Linux is less evolved than Lazarus Windows or why Lazarus is more compatible Windows then Linux and Linux then Mac ?

Apparently, in Lazarus, the management of the events is optimized for Windows and not for Linux. Is it due to the so called compatibility Delphi? It is all the same curious that on elementary objects there is so much difference.

So my question. And why this effects are not "native" in Lazarus ?
I have the feeling that these components are not finished as TStaticTexts. Try the BorderSpacing !... or Caption := StaticTex1 with  height = 45 and width = 232 : Result -> "StatictText" on the first line end "t1" on a second ! Curious...

With some TMemo, Tedit and TStatictText  that I wanted to use in a ergonomic way and in the same way under Windows and Linux, I shall have been able to make at least 6 reports of bugs. It is normal for this kind of components? Never anything met of similar QT / C ++. Or then it is necessary to use Lazarus with QT?


It is absolutely not professionel. If widgets developed apparently for Windows misses entry points of management of the events under Linux, it is necessary to change them... CustownDrawn perhaps, but it is necessary to develop it.

We must be able to use Lazarus without losing too much hours to try to adjust this kind of internal mechanics.

Regards. Zacheus

[Leledumbo]

I know well that the management of messages is different in 2 OS but why the problem is not adjusted with Linux ?

Something that is unknown would never get fixed, report whenever you found bugs.

Why Lazarus Linux is less evolved than Lazarus Windows or why Lazarus is more compatible Windows then Linux and Linux then Mac ?

Actually, not really. Even AFAIK most of the development is done on Linux. It's just Linux doesn't have native GUI subsystem like Windows (Windows API is integrated into the OS). You are allowed to choose the available GUI backends. I use Qt on Linux and AFAIE (As Far As I Experience) everything is much better than GTK(2).

Lazarus Mac gets native support since about a year ago or so. Prior to that, the situation is more or less the same as Linux. The current Carbon interface is already usable, and the Cocoa interface is on development. Nothing is left behind or abandoned as long as maintainers exist.

Apparently, in Lazarus, the management of the events is optimized for Windows and not for Linux. Is it due to the so called compatibility Delphi?

Why do you think so? It's not optimized for Windows, but it's Delphi VCL compatibility that makes it so (which in turn wraps Windows API). Even so, Delphi doesn't expose Windows-ism too much at its highest level (VCL). Which parts do you think are too Windows-ish?

So my question. Why this effects are not "native" in Lazarus ?

Define "native". Some people think "native" means to use whatever the GUI backend provides, some other think of it as "must be handled at the highest level as possible, apart from the underlying GUI backend". Which one is in your mind?

[Blaazen]

I have the feeling that these components are not finished as TStaticTexts. Try the BorderSpacing !... or Caption := StaticTex1 with  height = 45 and width = 232 : Result -> "StatictText" on the first line end "t1" on a second ! Curious...

Coincidence, I reported this today, it is GTK2 issue.
http://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=21697

[zacheus]

You use Qt on Linux and Win32 or 64 on Windows... It is not very portable! And, if I use QT, I know another solution which works cleanly but I learnt to develop in Pascal... I like Lazarus but it is necessary to be serious... Then Lazarus is mainly developed under Linux. Then, why all these limitations which do not exist with Windows Lazarus ? Because the ancestor it is Delphi ? With the arrival of Windows 8, it's time to put back it in question and to renew the approach of components.

What is the slogan of Lazarus...  I have difficulty in reading or translating... "Write once, run anywhere" 

The problem is not to know if we can develop on Linux and Windows  with Lazarus. With a common code, we can obtain something solid.

Now is it normal that I can not eliminate the Caret of TMemo under Linux?
Is it normal under Windows that I can change the color of a disabled TEdit but not the TextColor ?
Is it normal that I stack 2 StaticTexts to manage BorderSpacing on Windows and on Linux ?


If your answer is yes, to defend from such position, we can understand the so restricted number of lazarus developers.

Am I too much requiring ?

Then, there is another problem. The way are built some widget prevents from being able to modify them in a significant way. Things so basic as the selection multilines not contigue are not integrated into TStringgrids.  Any developer does not use it? Ah, it is necessary to derived its owned stringgrid. I made it but I consider that it is not adapted to the current professional development.

Regards. Zacheus.

[Blaazen]

@ "Write once, run anywhere"
No.
Lazarus is "Write once, compile anywhere"
"Write once, run anywhere" is Java. 

Lazarus tries to be as native as possible. Therefore you sometimes cannot change some basic properties like colors of Edit text or whatever.
You should always properly test your project on all platforms where you expect it will run. It is the same for all cross platform IDE/RAD. Adventage of fpc/Lazarus is that you don't need to install any runtime environment (like JRE) or any framework (like GTK or Qt). Applications are native.

[zacheus]

@ "Write once, run anywhere"
No.
Lazarus is "Write once, compile anywhere"
"Write once, run anywhere" is Java. 

Yes it was a joke as the problems which I meet at present with Lazarus... That i's certainly why I could not do it: it was wrong language !

Adventage of fpc/Lazarus is that you don't need to install any runtime environment (like JRE) or any framework (like GTK or Qt). Applications are native.

You are very optimistic...  Really RegEx without external librairies for exemple. I would like to see... Recently met problem : located a MAC address in a string...  And, you connect to databases without external libraires ? So it's very relative.

Well I am not there to shoot down Lazarus but I do not use Lazarus to tinker incomplete components or bugged components.  The problem is not Linux and its so-called limits but how lazarus widgets are interfaced with this OS. Other languages ​​can get what I want to do with Lazarus on Linux.

Regards. Zacheus

[BigChimp]

You use Qt on Linux and Win32 or 64 on Windows... It is not very portable! And, if I use QT, I know another solution which works cleanly but I learnt to develop in Pascal... I like Lazarus but it is necessary to be serious...

What Blaazen said. Also, if you don't like the use of various widgetsets, have a look into the customdrawn widgetset or e.g. LCL+fpgui...

For many people, Lazarus is a perfectly usable cross platform tool. Instead of complaining in a general sense, indicating what's wrong on a more detailed level will more quicly lead to improvement.

Then Lazarus is mainly developed under Linux. Then, why all these limitations which do not exist with Windows Lazarus ? Because the ancestor it is Delphi ? With the arrival of Windows 8, it's time to put back it in question and to renew the approach of components.

No idea what you're talking about here. Lazarus is being developed on/in Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, OSX, Solaris...
One of the goals is that transition from Delphi/VCL is fairly simple.
The arrival of a new GUI - Windows 8 - does not mean everybody needs to follow that - especially in a cross platform environment. What about GTK, Qt, Cocoa? Do you want to rewrite the entire LCL when KDE4/qt would switch to KDE5?

If you don't like the LCL, why not use the FPGUI or MSEIDE products (separate from Lazarus) that also use FPC.

What is the slogan of Lazarus...  I have difficulty in reading or translating... "Write once, run anywhere" 

The problem is not to know if we can develop on Linux and Windows  with Lazarus. With a common code, we can obtain something solid.

As Blaazen indicated: write as much common code as possible, compile on many platforms.
There will ALWAYS be differences between platforms, regardless of the approach you take, if you go further than basic applications.

Now is it normal that I can not eliminate the Caret of TMemo under Linux?
Is it normal under Windows that I can change the color of a disabled TEdit but not the TextColor ?
Is it normal that I stack 2 StaticTexts to manage BorderSpacing on Windows and on Linux ?


If your answer is yes, to defend from such position, we can understand the so restricted number of lazarus developers.

No idea. As people said, check the bug tracker and please report new bugs so they can get fixed.
If possible with a simple example program; a patch would of course be better.

Am I too much requiring ?

You seem to be a bit aggressive but that might be a cultural thing. In essence, having similar behaviour across platforms is a design goal of Lazarus.

Then, there is another problem. The way are built some widget prevents from being able to modify them in a significant way. Things so basic as the selection multilines not contigue are not integrated into TStringgrids.  Any developer does not use it? Ah, it is necessary to derived its owned stringgrid. I made it but I consider that it is not adapted to the current professional development.

Don't understand the last part, sorry.

Anyway, thanks for speaking up and trying to improve things by reporting what you think is wrong with the tool.

Because it's open source, you can influence Lazarus for the better. If you can, I would strongly suggest opening bugs for any problems that have not yet been reported, along with sample progams, indication of platform/widgetset, Lazarus version etc and hopefully an idea for a solution/code/patch.

Thanks,
BigChimp

[BigChimp]

Adventage of fpc/Lazarus is that you don't need to install any runtime environment (like JRE) or any framework (like GTK or Qt). Applications are native.

You are very optimistic...  Really RegEx without external librairies for exemple. I  ask to see... Recently met problem : located a MAC address in a string...

Please search before you complain. Have a look through the forums, wiki, and FPC help. There is a built in regex unit without any external dependency (in fact there are more than one).
Good luck.

[zacheus]

Please search before you complain. Have a look through the forums, wiki, and FPC help. There is a built in regex unit without any external dependency (in fact there are more than one).
Good luck.

There is a built in regex unit without any external dependency. Yes it doe's... BUT not rather complete (developped) to accept a Regular Expression for MAC Address

I complain but get off your cloud, please. The problems mentioned are real or not ? if not, itemize me the solution .... including MAC address lookup. I complain but I'm curious.

I notice once again that when one sets out facts, we complaint or we are aggressive; This is in total contradiction to your soothing rhetoric. "Just to report the malfunction". Yes I do regularly. I sometimes even offers. But here, the history of widgets Linux, the initial approach is corrupted. You like it or not ... Who complaints that it is the fault of Linux ?

For many people, Lazarus is a perfectly usable cross platform tool. Instead of complaining in a general sense, indicating what's wrong on a more detailed level will more quicly lead to improvement.

Yes. But in the recent facts :
http://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=21533. I can't print.  Bug ridiculous. Nobody uses Property stretched ? There is another native solution? This is an "agressive" constraint for professional development. And still, there was another bug on the alignment of simple field of which I  found a (proposed) solution because we can not  wait 4 weeks to obtain the correction. But why am I obliged to modify the code of lazreport ? 

This is the approach of "many People of Lazarus". One line of code for the application and one to correct the used component ? It is my current practice with 50% of the time for the application and 50% of the time  for the components... when I can solve problems (see the two problems mentioned initially).

Regards. Zacheus

[BigChimp]

Please search before you complain. Have a look through the forums, wiki, and FPC help. There is a built in regex unit without any external dependency (in fact there are more than one).

There is a built in regex unit without any external dependency. Yes it doe's... BUT not rather complete (developped) to accept a Regular Expression for MAC Address

I complain but get off your cloud, please. The problems mentioned are real or not... if not, itemize me the solution .... including MAC address lookup. I complain but I'm curious.

Yes, it IS complete. There's just not a sample of every possible regular expression possible included....
That's the point (of regular expressions).
To be fair, the regex unit I'm talking about does not support all possible features of other engines... so some tweaking might be required.
Go and write/look up a MAC regex and try and run it. If you can't get it to run, get back in a new post with specific code.

I notice once again that when one sets out facts, we plainte or we are aggressive; This is in total contradiction to your soothing rhetoric. Just to report the malfunction. Yes I do regularly. I sometimes even offers. But here, the history of widgets Linux, the initial approach is corrupted. You like it or not ... Who complaints that it is the fault of Linux ?

Well, you asked and *I* think you're coming across as to aggressive, certainly in your first couple of messages. Also, the English you're using is far from perfect; e.g.:

I  ask to see... Recently met problem : located a MAC address in a string...

does not make sense. What do you ask to see? How was I meant to understand you meant existing regex units couldn't support looking up MAC addresses?
That's why I mentioned my impression could be because of cultural issues.
You might notice I'm refraining from using soothing rhetoric in this post.

For many people, Lazarus is a perfectly usable cross platform tool. Instead of complaining in a general sense, indicating what's wrong on a more detailed level will more quicly lead to improvement.

Yes. But in fact :
http://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=21533. I can't print.  Bug ridiculous. Nobody uses Property stretched ? There is another native solution? This is an "agressive" contraint for professional development. And still, there was another bug on the alignment of simple field of which I  found a (proposed) solution because we can not  wait 4 weeks to obtain the correction. But why am I obliged to modify the code of lazreport ? 

This is the approach of "many People of Lazarus". One line of code for the application and one to correct the component ? It is my current practice with 50% of the time for the application and 50% of the time  for the components... when I can solve problems (see the two problems mentioned initially).

If you don't want to use it, don't and use something else.
If this is such a big problem for you in your professional development, why not pay somebody to maintain Lazarus/FPC to your standards?
Alternatively, why don't you provide patches with your bug reports so these things can be fixed once and for all? On the other hand:

But why am I obliged to modify the code of lazreport ? 

... perhaps you're better off buying a commercial product if you think submitting a patch to a completely free cross-platform IDE+compiler suite is too much to ask...


Regards,
BigChimp

[Leledumbo]

You use Qt on Linux and Win32 or 64 on Windows... It is not very portable! And, if I use QT, I know another solution which works cleanly but I learnt to develop in Pascal...

It's perfectly portable for me, I've got some applications written and compiled and tested using those backends and they run with no problems at GUI side. I got better interface on Linux when I use Qt, and Lazarus with Qt interface has a smoother execution. Which backend toolkit used doesn't really matter actually, it's a matter of changing an option from the IDE. Or are you talking about using Qt directly?

Then Lazarus is mainly developed under Linux. Then, why all these limitations which do not exist with Windows Lazarus ? Because the ancestor it is Delphi ? With the arrival of Windows 8, it's time to put back it in question and to renew the approach of components.

As I've stated before, if nobody ever reports such a bug, and nobody knows how to fix it (if it can be fixed), it would never be fixed. There's no relation with Delphi regarding this. It's simply because of what I said, or widgetset limitation (what if the backend toolkit doesn't really allow doing what you want?). I don't think there would be any problem with Windows 8. What do you think M$ would do against its API and GUI elements? It would still be forms, buttons, edit boxes, comboboxes, etc.

Now is it normal that I can not eliminate the Caret of TMemo under Linux?
Is it normal under Windows that I can change the color of a disabled TEdit but not the TextColor ?
Is it normal that I stack 2 StaticTexts to manage BorderSpacing on Windows and on Linux ?

Explained above. Anyway, before you go any further, state what widgetset you use. GTK(2)? Qt? CustomDrawn?

Things so basic as the selection multilines not contigue are not integrated into TStringgrids.  Any developer does not use it? Ah, it is necessary to derived its owned stringgrid. I made it but I consider that it is not adapted to the current professional development.

Either: file a feature request or: implement it yourself and send it as a patch. Welcome to open source development.

You are very optimistic...  Really RegEx without external librairies for exemple. I would like to see... Recently met problem : located a MAC address in a string...  And, you connect to databases without external libraires ? So it's very relative.

There is a built in regex unit without any external dependency. Yes it doe's... BUT not rather complete (developped) to accept a Regular Expression for MAC Address

Code: [Select]

uses
  regexpr;

type
  TStringArray = array of String;
var
  r: TRegExpr;
  s: String;
begin
  r:=TRegExpr.Create;
  r.Expression:='^([0-9A-F]{2}[:-]){5}([0-9A-F]{2})$';
  r.ModifierI:=true;
  for s in TStringArray.Create('3D:F2:C9:A6:B3:4F','3D:F2:C9:A6:B3:4F','127.0.0.1','localhost:8080') do begin
    r.Exec(s);
    if r.MatchPos[0]>=0 then
      writeln('success, found '+r.Match[0])
    else
      writeln('failure');
  end;
  r.Free;
end.Enough? First two should output success, along with the MAC address string. The last two would output failure.

Other languages ​​can get what I want to do with Lazarus on Linux.

And can those languages / frameworks do on more than 10 different combinations of CPU - OS - widgetset?

[LA.Center]

It is absolutely not professionel...

Lazarus can be really annoying at the beginning, but once you know your way around it is a superb tool. We use it professionally and we created professional tools with it and we are very happy with Lazarus.

I agree, you sometimes have to make small adjustments but you would need to do that with any other tools/library too. wxWidgets for example is almost 15 years old, and there too you need to make sometimes adjustments or wait for fixes.

Even Qt which is considered the most advance library has its flaws and is updated/fixed very frequently.

This is the nature of cross platform development. I think comparing it with Delphi is just plain wrong, Lazarus although the concept is very similar Delphi 5 the underlying architecture is very different and better designed.

[zacheus]

@Leledumbo
Enough ? almost...   This may be because I have not the daily snapshot... 

unit1.pas(43,25) Error: Illegal qualifier
unit1.pas(43,24) Error: Cannot find an enumerator for the type "<erroneous type>"
unit1.pas(55) Fatal: There were 2 errors compiling module, stopping

With Lazarus (like other), error is easy... and I stay on my position. When I tested -and this is not so long-, it was not working and was admitted. Besides the new unit is not a correction or an evolution of old units. But another. The old units still exist... with a new name It's not "as playable"... no more than installing snapshot every day (on linux) which correct the stable version ... which is no longer. But you have no choice ; the stable version buggy, or the latest snapshot. Like QT says PlusPlus. No, I don't agree. Management of updates and stable versions is different.

Usual stable components, a doc update, a user feedback ... is it possible? I doubt it and I'm annoyed.

I use Lazarus since version 0.9.26 ... and very few stable improvements are visible.. A TStaticText can work on Monday, be unable to manage BorderSpacing on Tuesday.  Has it done it one day?
A TEdit must follow the needs of the developer, as well on Windows, on Linux, on Mac, on....  A TEdit ! a common and essential component ! That upsets you? I'm sorry. Not as much as me finishing a "long" program with details of ergonomics unmanageable.
My client needs to read the contents of a TMemo without being allowed to "go inside". No scaret, no Drag&drop but ScrollBar active...as well in Windows, in Linux, or Mac !  Is this an exorbitant demand ?  We must make an inventory of basics components to see if we can make a TMemo inert while leaving it completely legible to the user? OS by OS ?

I must think of my determination to use Lazarus. Is this reasonable?

Regards. Zacheus

[LA.Center]

You are judging something based on your needs, if you think that Lazarus is not for you then it is probably not.

As for your problem (clients needs) this could be probably a better approach:

Use a TLabel in a Scrollbox and set it properties so that it can autosize to multiline. Very simple and your problem would be solved working on all platforms. (this would be my approach anyway)

That is what I meant with NOT to compare Lazarus with Delphi. There are things where you need to be creative and solve your problems a little different than you would with Delphi.

For example: We use a TTreeView component as a TListView component in many cases because TListView has a focus border on Mac, but that has nothing to do with Lazarus, it is the underlying lib that causes the differences.

If you post and describe your problems I am willing to help you anyway I can, and generally everyone in this forum is willing to do the same but please be kind and do not trash talk something that thousands of developers like and that was created and is maintained by people voluntarily and totally free.

[Takeda]

Hey, Mr. Zacheus.


Note for you :

1. I came from C/C++ using Genuine Microsoft Visual Studio for over years ago. But, when I know "pascal" has IDE which has availability to work in several platform, so I decide to "porting" my app architecture to Lazarus. You know, it was successful ! My app which I produce using Lazarus was running properly on Windows OS without any complaint from client!

2. Six months ago, my client request to make the same app for Linux "openSuSE", since their company grownup rapidly then they need to expand their "business". They asked me "Would you mind to create 'exact app' but for Linux Platform". I said "Yes I could". You know, I only "need" small improvement to my codes to be compile-able + running-able on Linux. Until now, my app still running perfectly without complaint from them.

3. As I told you above, I came from C/C++. So in short, I was "C/C++" mind-set. So I'm "newbie' for Pascal. But when I tried Lazarus, there is no problems for me, even Lazarus make me feel comfort for migrate from C/C++ to Pascal.

4. In the past I also buy genuine De*phi 7 and continuing to 2006, and my Last De*phi was XE2. But you know, even for me Lazarus is still offering better solution for many ways.

Trust me, EVERYTHING IS DEPEND ON YOU, Sir.

(If you want to know "How strong Lazarus?", then I suggest you to buy the professional product which created using Lazarus http://gridplusplus.com you'll know that Lazarus has better solution for you!)


Regards,
takeda.