Lazarus

Miscellaneous => Suggestions => Topic started by: Micaro on July 16, 2019, 09:24:22 pm

Title: Laz
Post by: Micaro on July 16, 2019, 09:24:22 pm
I believe that the popularity of Lazarus can be greatly enhanced very easily by our community.

We could promote Laz as the affectionately shortened form for casual use. "Laz programmer," "Laz program," "Just do it in Laz."

Of course, the wonderful name Lazarus must remain in other contexts. Sounds silly, right?

But in my experience, such silliness has influence. Many otherwise reluctant programmers might find Laz cool (despite some critics no doubt disparaging us with "lazy"), while Lazarus may currently seem out of the mainstream to them. It's kind of a "Les  Miz" thing, suggesting you're among the "in" group of "Les Miserables" enthusiasts.

I'm a gambler and my over/under is a quick 37 percent increase in usage if the short alternative term becomes common.

-- Mike Caro

Title: Re: Laz
Post by: skalogryz on July 16, 2019, 10:50:23 pm
...should be a big plus from LGBT community as well!
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: Martin_fr on July 16, 2019, 11:02:16 pm
And here goes yet another promise. Countless times before have we been told, if we were to do X, it would bring a huge amount of new users in a given time T. Never has it yet happened. That is the few times were the action X had been taken. (Like when we went version 1.0, which we were promised would bring countless new users).

Hypothetical:
If I were in power to make the decision you seek, I would challenge you to pledge some huge amount of money (of your personal money). You get it back, if the new users would indeed come (and stay).  I wonder if you would be willing to pledge such a sum. After all you seem certain that you are right, so you would not loose them. Or could you?
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: skalogryz on July 17, 2019, 01:36:41 am
Countless times before have we been told, if we were to do X, it would bring a huge amount of new users in a given time T. Never has it yet happened.
Offtop, but does it mean, that "huge amount of new users" would not be used as "switching to git" argument?
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: Martin_fr on July 17, 2019, 02:07:10 am
Offtop, but does it mean, that "huge amount of new users" would not be used as "switching to git" argument?
IIRC, it (that statement) was tried already. Also is this an argument or a thesis? And further, it appears that it may not be possible to hinder anyone to "use" it, but if they do they may find it to be of no particular effect.
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: skalogryz on July 17, 2019, 02:58:14 am
IIRC, it (that statement) was tried already. Also is this an argument or a thesis?
It's an argument when making a decision of switching to git (vs staying with svn).
...and a thesis that git brings more developers to a project.
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: RAW on July 17, 2019, 05:24:45 am
I guess most people are driven by mostly 2 reasons:

1. Reason:
pure "logic": for example:
If I can program a certain kind of program extremly fast and easy with a programming tool, then that's a good one!

2. Reason:
pure mainstream manipulated opinion: for example:
You can only program a game with C++, if you decide to do a game with something else, then it's not a real game, it's a joke, it's something bad ... very bad... so you need to use C++ to program a game... really! believe me! Trust the magazines and the newspapers, they know what is true ... and of course they know what is best for you! Do what they want you to do .. yesterday!!!  :D

Yeah, I couldn't deny myself ... sue me !
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: alexone on July 17, 2019, 06:30:22 am
the greatest gains is where the market is going to in the geatest numbers. Mobile.
Install
code
run.

Install --is decent still a pain in you know what -- a seperate copy of each/one desktop the other mobile.
No really easy way with dropdowns(tools) as in Delphi -- virtually seamless. Code -- switch targets -- compile run.
Run -- a bitch to set up libraries for emulation -- now just using straight-up phone install.



Title: Re: Laz
Post by: PascalDragon on July 17, 2019, 09:21:37 am
...should be a big plus from LGBT community as well!
Why do you think that? (honest question)
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: kupferstecher on July 17, 2019, 10:50:25 am
And here goes yet another promise. Countless times before have we been told, if we were to do X, it would bring a huge amount of new users in a given time T. Never has it yet happened. That is the few times were the action X had been taken. (Like when we went version 1.0, which we were promised would bring countless new users).
The "huge amount" probably is not correct, but its hard to say if a certein action actually had a positive result or not.
When I started with Lazarus the first WTF-moment was when the undocked windows of Lazarus popped up. By now I actually prefer it compared to a docked design, but it took time to learn the benefits. For others this may have been a show stopper already. Choosing a new tool, programming language and environment is a huge time investment, people tend to mainstream. In the end its an emotional decision. So I'd say yes, such small things do play a roll. But in total and not as a single "improvement".

Note: i don't advocate for the name "Laz".
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: marcov on July 17, 2019, 11:19:21 am
Countless times before have we been told, if we were to do X, it would bring a huge amount of new users in a given time T. Never has it yet happened.
Offtop, but does it mean, that "huge amount of new users" would not be used as "switching to git" argument?

Constantly, and usually heavily conflating git with github. Some even say they want to change to git because they already have a github account, bypassing a few realities:

- git is not github
- github as US hosted company will never be a primary mirror, so whatever accounts it has is irrelevant for the discussion.
- developers won't probably spend aeons poring over new users branches to find a few nuggets that are not touched by unnecessary reformatting and renaming. IOW one still has to create somewhat quality content to submit to as new feature or not.

But as usual in these discussions, the mere idea is all. Details are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: marcov on July 17, 2019, 11:20:02 am
2. Reason:
pure mainstream manipulated opinion: for example:
You can only program a game with C++, if you decide to do a game with something else, then it's not a real game, it's a joke, it's something bad ... very bad... so you need to use C++ to program a game... really! believe me! Trust the magazines and the newspapers, they know what is true ... and of course they know what is best for you! Do what they want you to do .. yesterday!!!  :D

Yeah, I couldn't deny myself ... sue me !

Yeah. Aka herd mentality.
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: skalogryz on July 17, 2019, 03:26:03 pm
- github as US hosted company will never be a primary mirror, so whatever accounts it has is irrelevant for the discussion.
one needs to stress, it's not just US hosted company. It's Microsoft hosted company xD

...should be a big plus from LGBT community as well!
Why do you think that? (honest question)
It's just a random note.
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: marcov on July 17, 2019, 03:48:55 pm
- github as US hosted company will never be a primary mirror, so whatever accounts it has is irrelevant for the discussion.
one needs to stress, it's not just US hosted company. It's Microsoft hosted company xD

Yup and even prime MS cloud services are considered cloud-non-grata (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/07/16/germany_outlaws_office_365_for_school_use/) let alone the freebie ones.  :D

That said, I don't know what secondary (mirror) repo options are for github.
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: Micaro on July 18, 2019, 02:28:25 pm
And here goes yet another promise. Countless times before have we been told, if we were to do X, it would bring a huge amount of new users in a given time T. Never has it yet happened. ...

Hypothetical:
If I were in power to make the decision you seek, I would challenge you to pledge some huge amount of money (of your personal money). You get it back, if the new users would indeed come (and stay).  ...

I'm confused. What did I promise? I'm speculating that, without changing the name Lazarus, if the community often referred to it affectionately as Laz, that might appeal to a broader base for purely psychological reasons. -- Mike Caro
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: Martin_fr on July 18, 2019, 03:00:04 pm
Well then sorry, I mistook your statement.

It was clear that the exact figure "37%" was a gamble. But your first sentence was:
Quote
I believe that the popularity of Lazarus can be greatly enhanced very easily by our community.
Which I took for, in your believe (i.e. you think of it as being true), the given steps will "greatly enhanced very easily by our community"

I admit I misread the next part. You are not actually lobbying for an official name change. You actually try to convince members of the existing community (which you are free to try).

I was mislead here, as usually the prediction - or as I called it promise - of a positive event like the one  given by you, is tightly coupled to a request for some change in the product itself.

Now that I realized that this is not the case, this changes the remainder of my response.
It is still valid in sofar that those members of the community that would be willing to partake in your proposed gamble could ask for some bargain that might it make worth their time (speculation on my part).
After all they might otherwise question your prediction, as they do not know you. And anyone can make any prediction. If it fails, it does not cost anything. And as I said, such failings have happened before. This is not to say that a proposed action would come to a zero effect. Only that the effect, if noticeable at all, will in most cases be nowhere near the predicted level. (which in your case is "greatly", and therefore already wide open to interpretation to begin with).


Btw, I have a hunch that in order to get a hype, a certain product similar to Lazarus might shorten there name to "Del". Due to the pun in it, with hindsight to the declining situation, this may be a huge success... :)

I wouldn't bet on it though. If it was indeed tried, and did not work, I would decline any responsibility.

My 2 cents.

Title: Re: Laz
Post by: trev on July 18, 2019, 03:07:16 pm
I don't see that calling the Lazarus and Free Pascal programming environment "Laz" would advance the prospects of the environment at all, let alone greatly.

A functioning foundation to promote Lazarus and Free Pascal would be more beneficial in my opinion. How more beneficial remains to be seen and depends on... ok, I won't hijack this thread :)
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: Martin_fr on July 18, 2019, 03:07:26 pm
Besides, that nick is occasionally being used already
https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&q="laz"+site%3Aforum.lazarus.freepascal.org&oq="laz"+site%3Aforum.lazarus.freepascal.org
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: Martin_fr on July 18, 2019, 03:24:44 pm
Well to stay somewhat on topic: improving popularity

This is of course important. And it is good to see that people care about it.

But to actually get it done, always requires manpower.

I.e. name-change or nick-naming. That is branding. It requires research what brand will actually help (Who knows if "Laz" would be received positive or negative).
Such a brand needs then to be advertised in some form. I.e. it needs to be presented to people who do not yet know the product. Those who already know it will judge the product by its abilities/features/... The name will have a lesser effect on them. Those who still have to get to know it, they may potentially be affected by a name. But only if that name is being brought to their attention. And that requires manpower. Spread the word/name.

About the research. As mentioned it may suggest "laz"iness.
There is also an ethnic group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people
So there are risk factors.

An example were this has happened: When 2.0. was released, someone (I am not sure who) from the German forum contacted a German IT magazine (CT). They actually published a few lines. I assume those lines were actually what was sent to them. So probably that user took the work, to prepare the text.


Title: Re: Laz
Post by: lucamar on July 18, 2019, 04:07:05 pm
I'm speculating that, without changing the name Lazarus, if the community often referred to it affectionately as Laz, [...snip...]

We do refer to it as "Laz" lots of times, as in "I'm on Laz 2.0.2"; but that's not "affectionately": it's to save on electrons. Just like we use FPC instead of wasting electricity to transmit the full name. :D
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: trev on July 19, 2019, 02:14:17 pm
From the urban dictionary:
Quote
LAZ
the act of attempting (unsuccessfully) to steal someone's thunder

Not a very propitious suggestion really!
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: af0815 on July 19, 2019, 07:12:47 pm
Lazarus is often used for health organizations in the german language area.

The shortform Laz have no known impact (by me)
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: marcov on July 27, 2019, 05:54:57 pm
- github as US hosted company will never be a primary mirror, so whatever accounts it has is irrelevant for the discussion.
one needs to stress, it's not just US hosted company. It's Microsoft hosted company xD

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/19/07/26/2157202/github-starts-blocking-developers-in-countries-facing-us-trade-sanctions
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: Thaddy on July 27, 2019, 06:19:14 pm
[https://tech.slashdot.org/story/19/07/26/2157202/github-starts-blocking-developers-in-countries-facing-us-trade-sanctions
Well, then I open up one of my domains. Nelly the elephant (trumpety trump) bores me all the time...Except by the Toy Dolls, of course, that makes sense.
Title: Re: Laz
Post by: RAW on July 27, 2019, 08:46:57 pm
ThaddHub  :D


Trump is a pawn, so don't waste your time ...  :P
If he doesn't do what they want, he will be KENNEDY 2.0 !