Lazarus

Miscellaneous => Suggestions => Topic started by: aradeonas on July 29, 2015, 11:33:04 pm

Title: Windows 10 applications
Post by: aradeonas on July 29, 2015, 11:33:04 pm
Now that the Windows 10 released I should ask what can we do for making new apps with new Windows standard and style?
Yes I know most of us are Linux user or make pereviouse desktop apps but changes even in style coming and it's good to know what options we have!
Also consider Tablets apps with continum ability.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: lainz on July 30, 2015, 01:25:11 am
Well.. Windows 10 application, define it.

There are "Windows 10 Store" applications that can be done only with Visual Studio. C# is actually easy to learn if you know FPC, is easier.

The win32 and win64 should be the same, I already created a bug report about the manifest.xml settings to include compatibility with Windows 10, but everything else should work.

Most of us.. well, according to the release downloads of Lazarus "most of us" are using Windows. In second place Linux and Mac downloads are about the same. Of course this does not reflect how many user compiled versions are out there.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: aradeonas on July 30, 2015, 07:28:46 am
Mostly I meant applications with Windows 10 style,for example check boxes that you can see in Edge.Working with VS is not a problem but I prefer remain with Lazarus as I can.
About users I admit I said it badly,I  thoutght most of the team memebr and users that are old in working with Lazarus are Linux user otherwise I am mostly a Windows user.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: lainz on July 30, 2015, 11:39:45 am
"C# or Visual Basic with XAML, JavaScript with HTML, or C++ with DirectX and/or Extensible Application Markup Language (XAML)"
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/dn726767.aspx

Well, lazarus does not support xaml and not support html (html at least now, it can be added of course).

This is somewhat old, but is discussed if can make xaml apps without visual studio: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1963773/wpf-without-visual-studio

I know, FPC and Lazarus: familiariy with it. JavaScript is closer and C# too. But If you can use Pascal will be better.

If it can be possible to make an HTML editor and a free Pascal compiling into .js there will be a choice? (I know there is one pascal compiler to .js, but is not free, or is just free a part) I don't know even if these apps are compiled in any way, or packaged, or if even is some place when it's described!

Personally if a compiler of fpc to js is made, object oriented will work, somewhat like TypeScript.

Well, here are the technical details, for those who knows:
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/br211377.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime

Sorry if there is something wrong in my post, I'm not a Windows 10 expert, just learning as you.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 30, 2015, 11:43:31 am
Now that the Windows 10 released I should ask what can we do for making new apps with new Windows standard and style?
Yes I know most of us are Linux user or make pereviouse desktop apps but changes even in style coming and it's good to know what options we have!
Also consider Tablets apps with continum ability.

This already came up when these apps were introduced with Win8. Nothing has changed, except that these apps are now also windowed, please research the old threads.

Anyway, the windows runtime would first need a FPC target before you can even think about GUI.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: lainz on July 30, 2015, 12:04:52 pm
Well, markov just say you what's going on here, but if you are somewhat lost like I was, this is really usefull, forget my old comment:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/28586642/windows-gui-wpf-or-winrt-2015
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 30, 2015, 12:10:57 pm
Well, markov just say you what's going on here, but if you are somewhat lost like I was, this is really usefull, forget my old comment:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/28586642/windows-gui-wpf-or-winrt-2015

Keep WPF and WinRT apart. That thread is about leveraging WPF on winrt, which is not so important for us since we are not .NET/WPF (which is the "newer" .NET GUI technology, the "older" one is WinForms) based, but GDI based.

WinRT is not .NET but C++ based target (but using interfaces afaik, a bit like DirectX is styled, api wise) we first would need a FPC port to it. It is not "win32/64".

Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: lainz on July 30, 2015, 12:15:54 pm
Keep WPF and WinRT apart. That thread is about leveraging WPF on winrt, which is not so important for us since we are not .NET/WPF (which is the "newer" .NET GUI technology, the "older" one is WinForms) based, but GDI based.

Alright, but at least describes each technology.

WinRT is not .NET but C++ based target (but using interfaces afaik, a bit like DirectX is styled, api wise) we first would need a FPC port to it. It is not "win32/64".

And in other words is possible?
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 30, 2015, 12:21:08 pm
WinRT is not .NET but C++ based target (but using interfaces afaik, a bit like DirectX is styled, api wise) we first would need a FPC port to it. It is not "win32/64".

And in other words is possible?

In theory yes, but as said it is a whole new target. The devil is in the details (think stuff like exception handling etc).  And some of the target specific stuff will need to be repeated for other architectures (read: ARM)

Also I don't know much about the practicalities, specially related to codesigning:

- will Windows will run unsigned or self signed winRT binaries?
- how to deploy? Can you execute win RT binaries outside the store as an user?
- Probably you can do the above as part of a developer program , but what does that cost? Is it doable for interested FPC users, or do they require Eur 100 an year or so. That would limit the audience tremendously.

Interested are encouraged to search the forum  and the fpc-devel and lazarus lists. IIRC Sven did some research about this and answered some of these.

Note that this is the first interest in WinRT in say 1.5 years........ That says almost enough in itselfl.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: lainz on July 30, 2015, 12:25:37 pm
Note that this is the first interest in WinRT in say 1.5 years........ That says almost enough in itselfl.

Indeed. Maybe because "they" are doing a lot of marketing effort with that white small icon on the notifications part of the taskbar in all PC's in the world? Windows 8 was too bad?
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: aradeonas on July 30, 2015, 12:46:08 pm
Is there any interest in team members?We can help but at least one of them core member or some one who know FPC well begin it so we can follow and help,really I want help but some ones like me are far from making a new target.
Lazarus and FPC do well until now but if Windows want go to that path and FPC not sure its a vary bad point.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 30, 2015, 01:21:11 pm
Indeed. Maybe because "they" are doing a lot of marketing effort with that white small icon on the notifications part of the taskbar in all PC's in the world? Windows 8 was too bad?

That's what I'm afraid of too. That when win10 apps don't really take off it dies away again after a short burst of interest (but nothing done)
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 30, 2015, 01:22:56 pm
Is there any interest in team members?We can help but at least one of them core member or some one who know FPC well begin it so we can follow and help,really I want help but some ones like me are far from making a new target.

My guess is "Interest yes, time no", otherwise it would already have started. I guess all devels interested in Windows (Me, Sven, Sergei, Florian, maybe Pierre) are interested to some degree, and will answer questions and help out.

The heavy lifting probably has to come externally though. Starting with a lot research on the target, and examining existing tools for it, both open and closed, which anybody with Windows and a browser can do.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: User137 on July 31, 2015, 11:19:11 am
That's what I'm afraid of too. That when win10 apps don't really take off it dies away again after a short burst of interest (but nothing done)
Windows 10 is really just an upgrade to Windows 7 it seems to me. After i installed it, i had my desktop 90% same as it's always been before. My old'ish version of gdb.exe didn't work though, Lazarus app started up without debugger. Technologically the system should be far above Win7 though, if nothing else the task manager is way better.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: aradeonas on July 31, 2015, 11:40:49 am
I talk about this subject that now with Lazarus I can make almost everything I want but it seems to me if everything going like this I will lose ability to make new genre apps for the biggest platform and its not good.
We like or not Microsoft try to make desktop,tablet and mobile like each other and make ways to convert way we want work with them.
History showed it will win and its just matter of time and one or two fail to do that and if great tool like FPC cant make what future need it changes from a "Make what ever you want".

Yes I know I just talk and didnt do anything for it but its first need to planed from makers and maintainer and then someone like me go after them and try to help if he can.
I just said what I think its important for my lovely tool ;)
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 31, 2015, 12:51:11 pm
That's what I'm afraid of too. That when win10 apps don't really take off it dies away again after a short burst of interest (but nothing done)
Windows 10 is really just an upgrade to Windows 7 it seems to me. After i installed it, i had my desktop 90% same as it's always been before.

I doublechecked if I had the right DVD in the player because the setup stage was extremely similar to Win10.

Quote
My old'ish version of gdb.exe didn't work though, Lazarus app started up without debugger. Technologically the system should be far above Win7 though, if nothing else the task manager is way better.

Try to disable smartscreen and the antivirus. They don't like debuggers and linkers (.EXE reading and writing apps)

Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 31, 2015, 01:28:56 pm
I talk about this subject that now with Lazarus I can make almost everything I want but it seems to me if everything going like this I will lose ability to make new genre apps for the biggest platform and its not good.

That's  exactly the problem. The windows appstore currently is the SMALLEST platform.  We DO support that biggest platform (win32/win64)

Quote
We like or not Microsoft try to make desktop,tablet and mobile like each other and make ways to convert way we want work with them.

That's cool, when do you think you will have the first code running?

Quote
History showed it will win and its just matter of time and one or two fail to do that and if great tool like FPC cant make what future need it changes from a "Make what ever you want".

(I'm not sure the people that invested heavily in Vista sidebar apps, win8 apps and the various Mobile products would agree.  MS is rock solid for some lines, win32/64, office, sqlserver and XBox, most other experiments failed miserably. The name microsoft is not automatically a marker for success.  Note that XBox is about the only newer product in that lineup. The rest are already established products since the nineties)

Anyway, I'm happy you are enthusiastic about it, and you think it is worth your time. It will be interesting to see what you come up with.

Don't worry about being a beginner, just get going. We all had to start sometime. Nobody is born a compiler devel, you just try and persist.

Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: aradeonas on July 31, 2015, 01:59:51 pm
marcov I like the way you always talking ;)

When I talked about platform I meant Windows not Win32 but you are right but its not reduce worrying about new devices and new ways people work with computer and we are make software that they use.

About beginning as compiler devel,yes you are right we aren't born this way but we are different .just take a look at the way we are talk,you are more realistic and understand computer and its behave much better than me but someone like me can just make things with tools you made.
My purpose from making this topic is brought more attention than now until someone that CAN decide to begin ;)

Thank you as always.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: minesadorada on July 31, 2015, 02:23:10 pm
Darn it!

After upgrading from 64-bit Win 7 to 64-bit Win 10 both my 32-bit Lazarus-built DB-based apps stopped working (msAccess and SQLite).  The launch icons are helpfully marked with an exclamation point by Win 10, but the 'troubleshoot compatibility issues' applet crashes.

Lazarus runs fine, so I should be able to pinpont the problem.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 31, 2015, 03:28:08 pm
Windows

There is no "windows" application platform. Only win32/64 and winRT (and maybe one could count the .NET 1.0,1.1 and 2-3.5 and 4.0+ as distinct platforms, I'm not deep enough in .NET for details knowledge about that)
 
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: aradeonas on July 31, 2015, 03:29:46 pm
Windows

There is no "windows" application platform. Only win32/64 and winRT (and maybe one could count the .NET 1.0,1.1 and 2-3.5 and 4.0+ as distinct platforms, I'm not deep enough in .NET for details knowledge about that)
Quote
I meant Windows not Win32 but you are right
And I said you are right but thanks for teaching me ;)
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: aradeonas on August 08, 2015, 09:44:02 am
So if I want to have controls like for example Windows 10 setting what can I do?What is the best way?Make new component and draw them my self or is there a way to let Windows draw them like other controls?Or should make xml theme?
I want to use it as a default so for example windows color changed my controls colors changed too.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on August 08, 2015, 07:50:37 pm
I guess so. I think like most newer GUIs they are essentially the css model, iow the controls are more rendered as a page i a browser.

It seems a devel license is needed for win8/10 apps:
- http://superuser.com/questions/524621/do-you-really-need-a-license-to-develop-windows-8-metro-apps
- https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/library/windows/apps/hh868184.aspx

Running apps is only allowed in a number of cases
- for a licensed developer on a limited amount of machines
- via the store.
- using an enterprise license that allows to have an own "store". The name suggests it is for big companies only, but I haven't seen exact pricing. But probably if you don't have a very Microsoft centric IT infrastructure that is probably not an option anyway.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: aradeonas on August 08, 2015, 08:00:10 pm
I dont care about the license,beside that Microsoft licensing is bad.
I just want to draw my controls like new style so I should draw them my self like what Lainz do in BGRAControls or get help from OS for better compatibility when OS theme changes,for example color.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: lainz on August 13, 2015, 02:05:14 pm
I dont care about the license,beside that Microsoft licensing is bad.
I just want to draw my controls like new style so I should draw them my self like what Lainz do in BGRAControls or get help from OS for better compatibility when OS theme changes,for example color.

You can create custom controls that looks the same as XAML controls that are used for Universal Windows 10 Applications (yes, these are xml).

I can't get the emphasis color choosen by the user, there is no API or I can't find it. XAML read the emphasis color from their own way...
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: aradeonas on August 13, 2015, 02:06:42 pm
If you said so,I will go with Dear BGRABitmap ;)
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: mercury on October 01, 2015, 05:36:45 am
Most of us.. well, according to the release downloads of Lazarus "most of us" are using Windows. In second place Linux and Mac downloads are about the same. Of course this does not reflect how many user compiled versions are out there.

Linux users doesn't need download Lazarus, they just install from software repository.  :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: Pluto on January 06, 2016, 10:45:48 pm
I was reading this thread and noticed it seems like there is a lot of misinformation so decided I would spend a couple minutes explaining Windows 10 as best I can.  I’m just now getting back into development and trying to decide what is the best technology to start learning...

Windows 10 is not just a new Windows 7.  Microsoft has essentially created a platform (The Universal Windows Platform, or UWP to be exact) that allows the development community to create applications that run across all windows-based devices, including phones, tablets, PCs, and Xbox.  This is called a Windows Universal Application.  Windows Universal Applications can query the functionality of the device and target the features of each device (or disable them on devices that don’t have a specific functionality).  Windows Universal Applications can be developed in VB.Net, C#, C++, and probably others like HTML5/JavaScript.

There is a fundamental shift in how software is distributed starting with Windows 8, and revised slightly in Windows 10.  With Win32/64 and traditional .NET applications, in most cases the user downloads an MSI and runs an install that puts the application in program files and adds a start menu item, and perhaps a desktop shortcut, and modifies the registry to allow for uninstall. Windows Universal Applications are installed in one of two ways.  The first way is through the Windows Store.  With this method the developer must have a Microsoft Developer Account.  It is submitted to the Windows Store, approved by Microsoft, and is available for sale (or free if the developer chooses).  The other way that a Windows Universal Application can be deployed is by what is called Side-Loading the application.  There is a setting in Windows that allows the user to install Windows Universal Applications outside the Windows Store from arbitrary sources.

Google "Guide to Universal Windows Platform (UWP) apps" for a Microsoft introduction...

So as you can see, you can’t just make it look like a Windows 10 application.  It would have to utilize all of the new APIs that are used for making Windows Universal Applications.  I think that there must be something similar in the Android SDK that allows developers to query for things like touch vs mouse, GPS, etc…   These things will first need to integrate into the LCL somehow.  I don’t know the first thing about LCL, so perhaps it already has this ability?

Anyhow, hope this helps…

Kurt
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: taazz on January 06, 2016, 10:55:05 pm
I was reading this thread and noticed it seems like there is a lot of misinformation so decided I would spend a couple minutes explaining Windows 10 as best I can.  I’m just now getting back into development and trying to decide what is the best technology to start learning...

Windows 10 is not just a new Windows 7.  Microsoft has essentially created a platform (The Universal Windows Platform, or UWP to be exact) that allows the development community to create applications that run across all windows-based devices, including phones, tablets, PCs, and Xbox.  This is called a Windows Universal Application.  Windows Universal Applications can query the functionality of the device and target the features of each device (or disable them on devices that don’t have a specific functionality).  Windows Universal Applications can be developed in VB.Net, C#, C++, and probably others like HTML5/JavaScript.

There is a fundamental shift in how software is distributed starting with Windows 8, and revised slightly in Windows 10.  With Win32/64 and traditional .NET applications, in most cases the user downloads an MSI and runs an install that puts the application in program files and adds a start menu item, and perhaps a desktop shortcut, and modifies the registry to allow for uninstall. Windows Universal Applications are installed in one of two ways.  The first way is through the Windows Store.  With this method the developer must have a Microsoft Developer Account.  It is submitted to the Windows Store, approved by Microsoft, and is available for sale (or free if the developer chooses).  The other way that a Windows Universal Application can be deployed is by what is called Side-Loading the application.  There is a setting in Windows that allows the user to install Windows Universal Applications outside the Windows Store from arbitrary sources.

Google "Guide to Universal Windows Platform (UWP) apps" for a Microsoft introduction...

So as you can see, you can’t just make it look like a Windows 10 application.  It would have to utilize all of the new APIs that are used for making Windows Universal Applications.  I think that there must be something similar in the Android SDK that allows developers to query for things like touch vs mouse, GPS, etc…   These things will first need to integrate into the LCL somehow.  I don’t know the first thing about LCL, so perhaps it already has this ability?

Anyhow, hope this helps…

Kurt
bla bla bla bla windows store lock in because apple is not smarter than microsoft bla bla bla. Conclusion, windows 8 and later is good for tablets and windows phones keep it out of my desktop. I do tend to have 5 application open side by side when I'm working and I do not appreciate the full screen I'm forced in on windows 10. So Microsoft either go back to a desktop OS or crawl somewhere else to die. APPLE wannabe.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on January 06, 2016, 11:32:05 pm
There is a fundamental shift in how software is distributed starting with Windows 8, and revised slightly in Windows 10.  With Win32/64 and traditional .NET applications, in most cases the user downloads an MSI and runs an install that puts the application in program files and adds a start menu item, and perhaps a desktop shortcut, and modifies the registry to allow for uninstall

No shift, in windows 10 it works that way too. Anyway nothing you say is new, it is just the same using the forced optimistic tone of Microsoft. We also heard this utopian tone about Vista sidebar apps :-)

BUT, one bit is new:

Quote
The other way that a Windows Universal Application can be deployed is by what is called Side-Loading the application.  There is a setting in Windows that allows the user to install Windows Universal Applications outside the Windows Store from arbitrary sources.

the above bit. I thought that sideloading was only possible using an enterprise sideloading license (which is way more expensive than the windows account, but maybe that it is more relaxed for desktop OSes since I last read up about it)

That said, I mostly read docs from win8 and prerelease win10 docs, so it could be outdated. Do you have concrete URL for this sideloading from arbitrary sources ?

Quote
So as you can see, you can’t just make it look like a Windows 10 application.  It would have to utilize all of the new APIs that are used for making Windows Universal Applications.  I think that there must be something similar in the Android SDK that allows developers to query for things like touch vs mouse, GPS, etc…   These things will first need to integrate into the LCL somehow.  I don’t know the first thing about LCL, so perhaps it already has this ability?

Yes, but that would be writing a winrt backend (for the platform), and then its specific GUI and event APIs.

I think the bigger problem is a browser-like rendering model that might be painful with LCL. LCL forms are not a freeflowing documents. But who knows?

Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: BobS on May 10, 2017, 01:53:24 am
Probably you've found this by now, but I didn't know it was a thing until I read this thread (well ok I don't use Win 10 though I'm going to stick it on a VM for testing real soon now).  Now that's a somewhat old article but I've seen other references so I guess it's still allowed (for now):
https://www.howtogeek.com/219651/windows-10-allows-you-to-sideload-universal-apps-just-like-android-does/ (https://www.howtogeek.com/219651/windows-10-allows-you-to-sideload-universal-apps-just-like-android-does/)
and this link is in the above article in case you just want to see what they have to say about it in MSDN
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/enable-your-device-for-development (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/enable-your-device-for-development)

Edit:
And if Windows 10 S starts showing up in non-school places well then the Store would be it, no more side-loading.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: Handoko on May 10, 2017, 04:29:42 am
Thanks for sharing those articles. But what is "sideload" as mentioned in the articles?
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: BobS on May 10, 2017, 05:14:37 am
Just the term used for getting apps made for the Windows Store (WUA) from somewhere else than the Windows store.  It would make developing things easier for people like me who only are going to have a handful of people using an Ap and don't want to have to go through the hassle of becoming a MS developer and submitting an App to Microsoft for approval (e.g. I'm currently writing an App that will only work for people who have a computer connected to an LG OLED TV--pretty small audience ;) ).
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: molly on May 10, 2017, 05:14:52 am
@Handoko:
Running applications which do not originate from the official store, e.g. like you run your compiled code that you just wrote with lazarus  :o

Or as google answered (http://www.windowscentral.com/how-enable-windows-10-sideload-apps-outside-store) the question: "windows what is sideloading":
Quote
If you're unfamiliar with the term "sideload", in Windows 10 it means the process of installing apps on your computer that hasn't gone through the certification process to appear in the Store and to run on a Windows device. The operating system by default blocks you from sideloading apps.

So, there exist an entity and mechanism that decides what or what executables you are allowed to run on your windows 10 computer. Welcome to the modern age of world domination, "resistanze is futile"  :D
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: Handoko on May 10, 2017, 05:37:02 am
It would make developing things easier for people like me who only are going to have a handful of people using an Ap and don't want to have to go through the hassle of becoming a MS developer and submitting an App to Microsoft for approval.

So, that is good news. Please understand, I'm a Linux user. Last Windows I used was Win7, I ever saw Win 8/10 but never really tried it.

Thanks Molly for the explanation, but:
So, there exist an entity and mechanism that decides what or what executables you are allowed to run on your windows 10 computer.

Does it mean Win10 has less or never has virus/malware issues? You know, those programs won't go to the certification process, so basically they can't run on Win10 (unless sideloading is enabled).
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: BobS on May 10, 2017, 05:48:49 am
"resistanze is futile"
I hope not, I really used to be a big MS fan, but then Windows 10 happened.  And now they want us to go to a walled garden.  I guess that goes hand in hand with losing Net neutrality and other scary things.  But MS doesn't have the greatest track record (e.g. Windows RT though that was also hardware limited) with some of this and I can only hope they will stop this mad march towards limiting our options in the name of "safety" that is mostly illusionary.  I hope people don't fall for Windows 10 S --resist--fight the Borg, it worked for Voyager ;) .

But if 10 S does become the new wave of the future, FPC/Lazarus is going to have join the club or slowly be left out in the cold (and winter is coming) I really don't want to have to code in c# or whatever (especially in visual studio, I yearn for the good old days when it wasn't full of bandwidth robbing telemetry...almost makes me nostalgic for FORTRAN and COBOL or maybe I'll dig out some TP 2 and DOS 6 and withdraw from this brave new world :) ).
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: BobS on May 10, 2017, 05:52:23 am
"Does it mean Win10 has less or never has virus/malware issues? "

No remember Win 10 can still run win32/64 just fine.  It's only the new Windows 10 S (s for schools) that forces the use of the store.  As too "if it's safer" maybe a little but I doubt for long--ways around will be found.  Geeze look at the zero day thing they just found in Windows Defender that let an UNOPENED email take over your computer, yikes!

EDIT:
BTW I see a lot of complaints from people claiming to have gotten spy ware from the Windows Store--maybe just hyperbole, but the apps apparently have a tendency to access things like cameras they have no business accessing so not a whole lot different than what can happen outside the store.  Personally I've only ever gotten a couple of things from it so I can't say for sure.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: molly on May 10, 2017, 05:59:41 am
Does it mean Win10 has less or never has virus/malware issues? You know, those programs won't go to the certification process, so basically they can't run on Win10 (unless sideloading is enabled).
Unfortunately not. In theory perhaps, not in practise.

That is exactly what 'those entities' want to make you believe. In that 'such entity' is to be trusted that they take care of malware/virus before it even hits the store/user.

In practise that isn't happening at all. Recent (but also older) news with regards to Google's appstore, the IStore and even MS app store showed that most of the applications phone home, put doors wide-open or even gather personal information.

Thereby, with software like Edge you don't even have to. Executing arbitrary code on the user's system is just 2 clicks away.

Are you perhaps familiar with this (https://embedi.com/news/what-you-need-know-about-intel-amt-vulnerability) ? Isn't that nice ? :)
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: BobS on May 10, 2017, 06:12:12 am
No, I missed that one, doesn't surprise me though.  I do remember various things like securboot UEFI etc. were supposed to make us oh so secure.  Reminds me of the video disk industry every time they release a new standard like blue-ray they say it's uncrackable then of course it gets cracked.  The unbreakable 4K Blu-ray encryption appears to have now been broken too.

Walled gardens may protect some users who don't know better than to download dubious software from dubious sites, but even my 84 year old mother knows not to do that.  Plus all the other ways to get infected, from what you linked to compromised USB sticks (IBM sold some of those recently) to phishing.  No it's all about money since Microsoft gets a cut from every piece of software sold in the store, why wouldn't they want to force everyone to use it?
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: molly on May 10, 2017, 06:14:47 am
"resistanze is futile"
I hope not,
You do not have to take my word for it, of course :)

These kind of moves are happening for a longer period of time now, and although i don't know the long term strategies of companies like MS, these strategies are also dictated by larger companies and governments that want to have a secure and safe (working) environment.

Imho, that is simply an illusion when still depending on and utilizing existing resources.

I have worked with MS and MS products for a longer period of time in the past, and what i see in practice is that "smart" companies move away from that. On the long run that could proof them wrong, but as things are right now, i don't blame them either. I'm moving away from it as well also looking around for (even) better alternatives.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: Handoko on May 10, 2017, 06:22:20 am
@BobS:

I just checked the information of Win 10 S. Too much limitations, better to use Linux.

I don't think their walled garden strategy will not survive too long. AFAIK, :-X they're losing customers. They gave Win10 for free for qualified Win7 users. My clients (I am a freelance computer technician) asked me to reinstall their office's computers back to Win7 because of the Win10 free update caused lots of troubles.

 >:( I hate UEFI, it makes my works harder.

@molly:

I'm glad I haven't upgraded my cpu to I5/I7. I'm using Intel Core2 Quad cpu, ever though to upgrade to more powerful I5 or I7 processor. This is a quote from wiki:

Quote
Currently, AMT is available in desktops, servers, ultrabooks, tablets, and laptops with Intel Core vPro processor family, including Intel Core i3, i5, i7, and Intel Xeon processor E3-1200 product family.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: taazz on May 10, 2017, 08:53:05 am
@BobS:

I just checked the information of Win 10 S. Too much limitations, better to use Linux.

I don't think their walled garden strategy will not survive too long. AFAIK, :-X they're losing customers.
Actually it is to early to say anything seeing that the desktop market is almost dead and the new frontier is the portable market ee phones, notebooks and laptops. The next big thing in the industry is the universal applicatons ee an application that runs on phones netbooks, notebooks etc regardless of the underline processor and hardware if that is .NET/mono or java or html/javascript is yet to be determined but c/C++ and other compilers will see their pie reducing rapidly in the near future.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: kupferstecher on May 10, 2017, 11:08:17 am
[...] seeing that the desktop market is almost dead
I don't agree here. There is no office job without a desktop/notebook PC. And only this use case demands millions of devises even in small countries. Sure the mobile market is gathering large shares, but couldn't rule out the desktop market, also not on the long run.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on May 10, 2017, 11:23:06 am
Edit:
And if Windows 10 S starts showing up in non-school places well then the Store would be it, no more side-loading.

I think people that buy Windows S are then not really interested in custom software anyway. It is to counter the ChromeBook concept, but then with actualy storage and (some) offline capabilities
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: taazz on May 10, 2017, 11:35:12 am
[...] seeing that the desktop market is almost dead
I don't agree here. There is no office job without a desktop/notebook PC. And only this use case demands millions of devises even in small countries. Sure the mobile market is gathering large shares, but couldn't rule out the desktop market, also not on the long run.
The desktop pcs are being replaced with laptops in most businesses mostly for the added "safety" feature of not loosing your work when the power goes out(decentralized power management). When the universal applications market get some momentum laptops will start to be replaced with tablets seeing that they are cheaper than laptops and have the same "safety" features. All in all the desktop computers will be confined to jobs with high requirements (in speed / quality etc) or modularity and in the server room as long as the "modularity" is cheaper than the complete replacement. as I said it is early for any conclusive results I'm just spinning around, it could change everything if intel comes up with a highly efficient high performance and cheap SOC (for example) that supports existing applications, although I do not see the industry dropping the arm SOC any time soon.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on May 10, 2017, 12:08:47 pm
The next big thing in the industry is the universal applicatons ee an application that runs on phones netbooks,

It has been one of the hopeful new events since 2010, but it still seems as far as way then. Further even, since the landslide opportunity with the next Windows version after Windows 7 to be picked up by corporations seems to have passed.

But the dream already failed on the first step in 2007-2010, where many applications had different apps or at least form design for tablets and phones.

Quote
notebooks etc regardless of the underline processor and hardware if that is .NET/mono or java or html/javascript is yet to be determined but c/C++ and other compilers will see their pie reducing rapidly in the near future.

Native development has been declared dead every 2 years since Java emerged. We'll see.

I think a lot of what can be moved to browsers and apps has been moved.  The problem is that the App world hasn't cracked many of the hard nuts, like universal filesystem access (to exchange files between apps in non-precooked ways) and other OS resources.

Most apps usage in the corporate world seems to be about personal communication, and very little of business processes is converted to apps.  Which is strange, since quite a lot were browser based anyway.

Take a simple receptionist that must manage schedules etc. Most of them still have a fancy PC or Mac before them. A few also use a tablet, but all the ones I see use a webbrowser on that tablet, not an specialized app.

Yes, all corporates salivate over easy deployment of simple applications, and some might even dream of delivering all that way, but the problem is that gambling on a platform that won't make it in the end is very costly. You want to make a choice, and use that for a while, without having a tin of pesky developers on call.

And webbrowser based apps already deliver on that, so what do we really need apps for?

And not allowing sideloading makes it out of reach of non big-corporate companies anyway.

Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: BobS on May 10, 2017, 01:33:37 pm
"I think people that buy Windows S are then not really interested in custom software anyway. It is to counter the ChromeBook concept, but then with actualy storage and (some) offline capabilities"
I think it's too early to say.  For one thing right now this sounds mostly limited to schools, but it's possible Microsoft might offer it for free or very cheap to OEMs in which case it might become predominate.  The other thing is apparently MS has said that people will be able to upgrade to full Windows 10 for $0-$50 (I gather right now it's $0 but may change) so, assuming whatever they bought is powerful enough, I guess there will be a way for people to get out of the walled garden if motivated.  But if MS does this it might push Windows 10 to a dominate position with the 10 S leading with the most users, though none of this would happen overnight, I expect win32/64 to be around for a good while yet.  Certainly this seems to be the direction MS is hoping for...though there are a lot of "mights" in there.


As to those who think desktops are in decline, people keep saying that, but they never do, what is true is that people hang on to them a lot longer as advancements in processors etc. haven't been more than incremental for years now.

 I went to x99 system from Sandybridge two years ago only because my motherboard cracked so I built the best system I could afford otherwise most of what I do could still work on that quite well, I plan on the new one lasting another four+ years (with a graphics card update).  And things like VR come along and help keep the market alive too (though I personally haven't gone that route I have gone 4k and a good desktop/laptop helps with that too).

In 30 years there will still probably be gamers and others needing more power than a phone/netbook can provide--imagine a space simulator like Kerbal Space Program that has true real physics emulation from planetary weather to solar winds.  And there might be some unforeseen, must have program that makes everyone "need" a desktop (a total emersion virtual reality that hooks directly into the brain so all senses are activated for example ;( ).
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: taazz on May 10, 2017, 02:11:05 pm
The next big thing in the industry is the universal applicatons ee an application that runs on phones netbooks,

It has been one of the hopeful new events since 2010, but it still seems as far as way then. Further even, since the landslide opportunity with the next Windows version after Windows 7 to be picked up by corporations seems to have passed.

But the dream already failed on the first step in 2007-2010, where many applications had different apps or at least form design for tablets and phones.
true forms is the new icon where everything looks the same but it needs manual setup to work efficiently. Then again it might not need any in the near future depending on the auto scale algorithms developed.
Quote
notebooks etc regardless of the underline processor and hardware if that is .NET/mono or java or html/javascript is yet to be determined but c/C++ and other compilers will see their pie reducing rapidly in the near future.

Native development has been declared dead every 2 years since Java emerged. We'll see.
not dead, compilers can not die the same way that assembly never died it is still used but it has a very narrow slice. the same way the compilers will loose market but they will never die.
I think a lot of what can be moved to browsers and apps has been moved.  The problem is that the App world hasn't cracked many of the hard nuts, like universal filesystem access (to exchange files between apps in non-precooked ways) and other OS resources.
This is bypassed with the use of online storage ee google drive, one drive, and other services will be the storage medium of the average user no more hard drives or loosing your data between devices manual backups etc. Will they ever be merged under a single api? well..., maybe, the same way that file systems are accessed with the same api inside an OS it will require a massive movement eg a super stores or two that has its own api that all others implement to use its front.
Most apps usage in the corporate world seems to be about personal communication, and very little of business processes is converted to apps.  Which is strange, since quite a lot were browser based anyway.

Take a simple receptionist that must manage schedules etc. Most of them still have a fancy PC or Mac before them. A few also use a tablet, but all the ones I see use a webbrowser on that tablet, not an specialized app.

Yes, all corporates salivate over easy deployment of simple applications, and some might even dream of delivering all that way, but the problem is that gambling on a platform that won't make it in the end is very costly. You want to make a choice, and use that for a while, without having a tin of pesky developers on call.

And webbrowser based apps already deliver on that, so what do we really need apps for?

And not allowing sideloading makes it out of reach of non big-corporate companies anyway.
all true everything that a business needs to do today can be done through the browser from document editing to appointment managing etc. The cost of rending those services is small enough for the SMEs that they will never select to buy the software for them selfs.  some spesialized applications ee courier, logistics, simulators etc might take some time to become available for rending but in the end they will become available after all most of them are server side executed and only shown the results to the end user.

Personally I hate the feeling of a web application the refresh of the page the expiration of the cookies and all that, as long as I can, I will always choose to use an application over a web app.

In any case the devices used to be part of a corporation seems to be less and less relevant a 21" tablet might not be common today but it might become common in the future if it costs and functions similar to a 21" touch screen. Keyboards and mouses might disappear altogether or seen inside a corporation only, the same way a typewriter was once.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on May 10, 2017, 02:25:09 pm
"I think people that buy Windows S are then not really interested in custom software anyway. It is to counter the ChromeBook concept, but then with actualy storage and (some) offline capabilities"
I think it's too early to say.  For one thing right now this sounds mostly limited to schools, but it's possible Microsoft might offer it for free or very cheap to OEMs in which case it might become predominate. 

Agree, I based that remark about the markets they are now going after (the US educational market mostly). But that can change.

Still, I don't really expect domination, but even if it is somewhat a hit in say, education and convertible (tablet+keyboard) market, I think it will remain just a another (and minority) tablet platform, and the dragged-by-the-hairs Windows desktop connection won't really have much effect on the core windows software market.

IOW, Windows S success is not automatically UWP is the next big thing on Windows.

The other thing is apparently MS has said that people will be able to upgrade to full Windows 10 for $0-$50 (I gather right now it's $0 but may change) so, assuming whatever they bought is powerful enough, I guess there will be a way for people to get out of the walled garden if motivated.

True, but that is full windows and win32/win64 again.

Quote
But if MS does this it might push Windows 10 to a dominate position with the 10 S leading with the most users, though none of this would happen overnight, I expect win32/64 to be around for a good while yet.  Certainly this seems to be the direction MS is hoping for...though there are a lot of "mights" in there.

You can never rule out something strange and unexpected will happen (just talk to people in the late nineties that Apple will be the biggest IT corp ). But for now, as I say above, it will be mostly yet another tablet and convertible, and that even if if it doesn't fail miserably. (which is also an option)

If it is a minor success, it will be interesting what MS next steps are, if they can truly lift the UWP platform from tablet limitations into something more usable for a wider set of application types.

Only then it makes sense to talk about some of that crossing over to the wider PC market.

Quote
As to those who think desktops are in decline, people keep saying that, but they never do, what is true is that people hang on to them a lot longer as advancements in processors etc. haven't been more than incremental for years now.

Well, it is not just hardware sales. Developer focus was mobile oriented for a while too. Though that seems more consolidated now, with a few big players getting the big bucks, and I get the feeling that many small devels had a shot at the mobile biz, and are now back.

The idea that every butcher must have his own app to stay relevant has been put to rest. Luckily.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on May 10, 2017, 03:27:47 pm
This is bypassed with the use of online storage ee google drive, one drive, and other services will be the storage medium of the average user no more hard drives or loosing your data between devices manual backups etc. Will they ever be merged under a single api?

I don't know, but if it is true, it is still far, far off.

I commute by train, and I don't see people using phones, tablets or chromebooks to work in it, but plain old laptops. Same as ten years ago albeit with maybe a slightly higher Apple factor.  For the rest you see people navigating social media on their phone, and watching video on (fairly small form factor) tablets and a few of the more outsized phones.

Quote
well..., maybe, the same way that file systems are accessed with the same api inside an OS it will require a massive movement eg a super stores or two that has its own api that all others implement to use its front.

The always-on connectivity is simply not there, except on Google-busses in Silicon Valley. Yes, people have wireless internet, but for social networks, not manipulate files. That would be costly, and, worse, often not available when you need it most (e.g. when you are stuck in a busy airport or train station, the Wifi often isn't very reliable)

Personally I hate the feeling of a web application the refresh of the page the expiration of the cookies and all that, as long as I can, I will always choose to use an application over a web app.

Me too, but most so called apps hardly feel better. Slow interactively, underutilization of large screens etc.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: taazz on May 10, 2017, 04:46:12 pm
This is bypassed with the use of online storage ee google drive, one drive, and other services will be the storage medium of the average user no more hard drives or loosing your data between devices manual backups etc. Will they ever be merged under a single api?

I don't know, but if it is true, it is still far, far off.

I commute by train, and I don't see people using phones, tablets or chromebooks to work in it, but plain old laptops. Same as ten years ago albeit with maybe a slightly higher Apple factor.  For the rest you see people navigating social media on their phone, and watching video on (fairly small form factor) tablets and a few of the more outsized phones.

I haven't commuted for a couple of years now mostly because I work from home but if I remember correctly isn't the "commute index" a couple of generations behind the trends? ee you are going to see them in trains and buses and all that, after the trend generation becomes the new working force or is this only relevant here?

Quote
well..., maybe, the same way that file systems are accessed with the same api inside an OS it will require a massive movement eg a super stores or two that has its own api that all others implement to use its front.

The always-on connectivity is simply not there, except on Google-busses in Silicon Valley. Yes, people have wireless internet, but for social networks, not manipulate files. That would be costly, and, worse, often not available when you need it most (e.g. when you are stuck in a busy airport or train station, the Wifi often isn't very reliable)
Depends on a lot of factors, mostly you are correct, there is the G5 coming at 2019 which is expected to be universally adopted by 2025 which if things go as planned will provide 50~100MBs on average for each phone user in lower prices. This is neither here nor there, its just one of the technologies that are developing now which will make the always online possible, or more accurately wider accepted. WIFI might not be link that binds us after all.

Personally I hate the feeling of a web application the refresh of the page the expiration of the cookies and all that, as long as I can, I will always choose to use an application over a web app.

Me too, but most so called apps hardly feel better. Slow interactively, underutilization of large screens etc.
most apps are always better because they abide (admittedly by submission not by design) by the simple rules of user friendliness, do not hide abilities from the end user the menu is always present the menu items are always visible (disabled but visible) the toolbars do not change (much any way) the data are always changing but they do not flicker constantly they might have small (or not so small) delays between data retrieval but after that I can scroll filter print sort rearrange my data as I see fit with no flickering or change in the user interface. some feel a bit slaggish, mostly C# and java applications but I have seen lcl and delphi applications being slagish too, but overall they are more productive and smooth from anything web based. then again it might only be me.

Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: BobS on May 10, 2017, 11:14:08 pm

You can never rule out something strange and unexpected will happen (just talk to people in the late nineties that Apple will be the biggest IT corp ). But for now, as I say above, it will be mostly yet another tablet and convertible, and that even if if it doesn't fail miserably. (which is also an option)

If it is a minor success, it will be interesting what MS next steps are, if they can truly lift the UWP platform from tablet limitations into something more usable for a wider set of application types.

Only then it makes sense to talk about some of that crossing over to the wider PC market.

We are pretty much on the same page.  I would certainly be interested if FPC/Lazarus got a UWP target, but it's not something I'm hugely concerned about now, if the world decides to go that way, we will probably start to notice in a few years and if it happens then I'd imagine there would be enough interest that such a project might indeed get done.  FPC/Lazarus is a very impressive platform and given all the targets it already has I'd think one more to keep it modern/relevant would be very likely.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: Tourniquet on July 02, 2017, 03:44:16 pm
Heya,

but isn't it possible to build on this: https://github.com/tgerdes/DelphiWinRT  (http://www.thomgerdes.com/2011/12/writing-hello-world-for-winrt-in-delphi.html)?

That is basically a "Hello world" Windows 8 App writting in Delphi / XAML.

So if someone would enhance that / translate the new win10 headers it should very well be possible, shouldnt it?
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 02, 2017, 04:03:14 pm
I haven't commuted for a couple of years now mostly because I work from home but if I remember correctly isn't the "commute index" a couple of generations behind the trends? ee you are going to see them in trains and buses and all that, after the trend generation becomes the new working force or is this only relevant here?

Maybe that is true, but that can only be said  in retrospect for the 0.5% of trends that actually survive that long and are here to stay.

Btw I forgot the convertibles. I do see these convertables regularly too. With convertables I mean fairly high end tablets with keyboards attached like surface and asus transformer, but they seem to be mostly used as lightweight laptops using office productivity apps (read Word,Excel), and not as tablets.

Quote
Depends on a lot of factors, mostly you are correct, there is the G5 coming at 2019 which is expected to be universally adopted by 2025 which if things go as planned will provide 50~100MBs on average for each phone user in lower prices. This is neither here nor there, its just one of the technologies that are developing now which will make the always online possible, or more accurately wider accepted. WIFI might not be link that binds us after all.

We'll see, but with the new wind blowing from the US about net neutrality, I wouldn't be surprised that we go back to the walled garden which means you can only access carrier supported streaming services at that bandwidth.

Quote
most apps are always better because they abide (admittedly by submission not by design) by the simple rules of user friendliness, do not hide abilities from the end user the menu is always present the menu items are always visible (disabled but visible) the toolbars do not change (much any way) the data are always changing but they do not flicker constantly they might have small (or not so small) delays between data retrieval but after that I can scroll filter print sort rearrange my data as I see fit with no flickering or change in the user interface.

That is not the impression that I get. Yes they are pretty and simple, but usually so are their abilities. They excel in doing a few of the simplest tasks, and are horribly limited in their storage options. (e.g. often only communicate with one webservice).

Quote
some feel a bit slaggish, mostly C# and java applications but I have seen lcl and delphi applications being slagish too, but overall they are more productive and smooth from anything web based. then again it might only be me.

I wasn't comparing with webbased. I don't consider webbased exactly the pinacle of UI, if only because it under utilize any standard for keyboard navigation
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 02, 2017, 04:06:32 pm
Heya,

but isn't it possible to build on this: https://github.com/tgerdes/DelphiWinRT  (http://www.thomgerdes.com/2011/12/writing-hello-world-for-winrt-in-delphi.html)?

That is basically a "Hello world" Windows 8 App writting in Delphi / XAML.

So if someone would enhance that / translate the new win10 headers it should very well be possible, shouldnt it?

Is it now? Afaik the system unit will still link to win32 user32.dll and kernel32.dll, something which is not allowed for the store (but maybe allowed for sideloading). The documentation with that sourcecode is a bit thin though, so it is all guesswork
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: Thaddy on July 02, 2017, 04:25:59 pm
@Marco
The only thing I know is that requirements have been much relaxed for pure intel based executables.
There were way too many complaints. And - given the company - extremely little activity and content by third parties.
I never tried it though. Such things do not belong to my interest - or patience span.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: Tourniquet on July 02, 2017, 04:47:48 pm
I'm pretty sure you can also put it in the store. Because you still import things from user32 and kernel32 the app will need more privileges than "normal" uwp but I guess that's fine.

The whole point of the Desktop Converter / Centennial Bridge is to put win32 apps in the store and make them more UWP over time. You can actually have a package with both in it: win32 and uwp.

The biggest "problem" would be that it probably won't run on Windows Phones / XBOX. But I guess it would be still a huge progress to be able to create UWP apps with pascal / lazarus.
Title: Re: Windows 10 applications
Post by: marcov on July 02, 2017, 04:50:33 pm
I'm pretty sure you can also put it in the store. Because you still import things from user32 and kernel32 the app will need more privileges than "normal" uwp but I guess that's fine.

The whole point of the Desktop Converter / Centennial Bridge is to put win32 apps in the store and make them more UWP over time. You can actually have a package with both in it: win32 and uwp.

(also to thaddy)
I do know centennial, but this codebase is from win8.x times(and thus predates centennial to my knowledge) and pretends to be winrt, while afaik it is not.

And to be frank, at the moment wrapping win32 apps in store for desktop use alone is not very interesting IMHO.

But if you do, please document it.
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