Lazarus
Miscellaneous => Other => Topic started by: Jvan on August 02, 2020, 03:02:00 am
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That's the question.
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I believe the simple answer is that Python has it's roots in Linux and Linux is still essentially driven by 1970's technology with command lines being used for anything important. An application that might only run on a graphical user with menu's check boxes and all the other amazing features from Delphi/Lazarus features looks too much like a Windows or Mac application and is disliked with intensity by the Linux community.
The second simple answer is this: "It's hard to learn something when you don't know you don't know but think you do" I've never met anyone who can program well in Delphi/Lazarus ever wanting to change to writing in Python.
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That's the question.
Because python is easier and is already a linux-integrated language with many applications and libraries available.
Python is a very expressive language, that is, you can do a lot in a few lines of code!
Python is also applied to data science and AI.
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First, I'd suggest that that's comparing chalk and cheese: Lazarus is a RAD IDE while Python is a language.
Now considering Pascal vs Python which is far fairer, I'd suggest:
* Pascal has been eclipsed by C-like languages. Regrettably, a whole lot of people base their decision on the fact that { is more concise than begin, and <tab> is less work than either.
* Python is a successor to Perl, which gained a significant following as a pragmatic way of solving problems in part due to its embedded regex facilities.
* Pascal is seen as a "toy" or "teaching" language. This wasn't helped by the way that it was rushed out, and as such didn't learn from the attempts to improve its predecessor ALGOL.
* Delphi/Kylix achieved limited limited Linux/unix penetration. The same applies for just about every RAD tool.
* There are areas where Python is quite simply better thought-out. For example, its handling of the modulus operator: pascal can't "fix" this because of legacy code.
* Again, as a newer language without significant legacy code, Python was able to benefit from some of the better ideas of the last 40 years and avoid some of the pitfalls.
* If OP is intent on Lazarus, a fairer comparison would be between Lazarus and Visual BASIC (including Visual BASIC for DOS), or the various so-called 4GLs including things like Empress which did achieve some unix penetration.
Personally, I loathe Python on account of the whitespace issue and am not trying to defend it. But hopefully the above is fair comment.
MarkMLl
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The second simple answer is this: "It's hard to learn something when you don't know you don't know but think you do" I've never met anyone who can program well in Delphi/Lazarus ever wanting to change to writing in Python.
Well, there are many on this forum - including me - that are just as proficient in Python as in Object Pascal.
The main difference is that Python is essentially a dynamic language and Object Pascal is essentially a static language.
Most Python libraries are actually written in C, not Python, and you can develop Python libraries with Pascal too.
Most Pascal libraries are actually written in Pascal although there are Python bindings for Pascal to let it work the other way around too.
It is more about choosing the right tool for the job at hand.
(Also: Python is not written in Python but mostly in C, whereas FPC and Lazarus are written in Pascal: demonstrates purpose)
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That's the question.
Another question - "where Pascal is not as popular as Python is?"
Google - "Top Programming Languages by Industry".
Google - "What is the best language for Competitive Programming".
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Maybe you want to Google what makes Python suddenly popular after being a lowly looked language for 20 years while Pascal keeps everything steady (well actually it grows though very slowly). Now Google who backs each, you'll find the answer there.
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That's the question.
Low barrier to entry in combination with being in the right place at the right moment to get to be adopted as scripting language in certain Linux distros.
That makes it easy to start on both the subject matter, and the availability.
I've spend the last week involuntarily messing with Python, and I fail to see an attraction in the language itself. In general, language popularity rarely is.
But if you have a time machine, just go back to 1969, and convince Ken Thompson c.s. to use Pascal for Unix development.
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As noted, it's really Object Pascal VS Python or like the Lazarus IDE VS the PyCharm IDE. However, this type of confusion, where people refer to the IDE instead of the programming language seems emblematic with Object Pascal. There appears not enough marketing or publicity to pierce the mind share of the general public, or even the programming community. Way too many times, I have seen even programmers refer to the Object Pascal language as Delphi, or be clueless that Pascal evolved into Object Pascal. Their only recollection of Pascal being Turbo Pascal and some high school or college classes using it in the 1980s.
Part of this issue of public mind share, appears to also come from having large company or OS backing. Java had/has Sun/Oracle, C# has Microsoft, Python has the Linux community and distros, etc... Swift is debatably popular because Apple pushes it very hard. Object Pascal doesn't have heavyweights on this level behind it, so it has to grow from a more grassroots perspective. There is of course Borland/Embarcadero (Delphi), but they weren't/aren't on the same level as the other companies mentioned. Embarcadero tends to fumble a lot, like Borland before it, and seems to put greed before long term planning. I could also see Embarcadero/Idera disastrously dropping Delphi, even now, and pushing Java or C++ products if thought they could get away with it or make an extra dollar.
As for the popularity of Object Pascal, I think it is being used more than people think. There are a lot of dialects, compilers, and IDEs floating around. Many schools throughout the world are teaching Pascal/Object Pascal or using Delphi. Let's not forget Embarcadero's deal with Turkey, where they sold over a million licenses to their school system. I think that in the United States, Object Pascal gets pushed to the side, because you have large American companies pushing their favorite programming language and trying to convince everyone that all other languages are "dead".
Lastly, it does seem that those using Object Pascal are a bit quiet for competitive reasons. Seems like they don't want people to know their secret sauce, and rather people bang their heads against the wall using Java or Python. I think a significant number of people, if they were clearly aware that Pascal became Object Pascal and what it can do, would switch over. But, the key is public awareness.
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As noted, it's really Object Pascal VS Python or like the Lazarus IDE VS the PyCharm IDE. However, this type of confusion, where people refer to the IDE instead of the programming language seems emblematic with Object Pascal. .....
Yes, I agree. I consider my app is written in Lazarus, in fact its written in Object Pascal and linked to LCL. When I say "Lazarus" do I mean the IDE or the Lazarus Component Library ? I am currently working on getting the app into Debian and Ubuntu repositories, I say, in the control file, that its dependent on FPC and Lazarus. Of course I mean LCL but the way to get LCL available is to install Lazarus.
Its a technical issue, I doubt its much of a barrier to people adopting Object Pascal but it does cause some confusion. Maybe the real barrier is that "Object Pascal" is too long ? 4 syllables. C, Go, C#, Python, Java, Ada .... are all one or two syllables ? Is that what we have been missing all along ?
:-)
Davo
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Having a an 8" Turbo Pascal for CP/M disk in storage I can say I've been using Pascal for a few years. I've also, in University, had to use APL, Algol-W, Algol-68, LISP, Fortran, SNOBOL, COBOL, C. UBC-Pascal and a wide variety of assemblers.
Outside of school a few other custom languages for databases but lately mostly C, Delphi, and Assembler. I tried to use Python on a Raspberry Pi project that interfaced to a PIC32 via SPI bus. Had to scrap it and rewrite in C. Python just isn't fast enough.
Now I'm doing a project that is similar to one I did in Delphi but I've chosen Lazarus so it can compile and run on a wide variety of platforms. Mostly because so far RAD Studio and their Firemonkey doesn't address Linux and the Pi/Beagle.
And the latest version of RAD Studio 10.4 now must have WIN-10. So I bought a new HP Laptop that has WIN-10 since I still have clients and one year of support left.
And although Lazarus is slow compared to Delphi on the same hardware, the portability is nice. Although even that's turning out to be a bit of a myth with font sizes and some other things that don't work on Pi/Beagle like they do in WIN-7/10
But mostly Python for Linux is fundamentally still a command line oriented development environment. Python on all the little Arduino type modules all use a command line and then a GK or other graphics library.
Delphi/Lazarus is just really a well kept secret. And I met one guy who emphatically said he wasn't interested in Delphi because it didn't do anything good for his CV.
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But mostly Python for Linux is fundamentally still a command line oriented development environment. Python on all the little Arduino type modules all use a command line and then a GK or other graphics library.
Delphi/Lazarus is just really a well kept secret. And I met one guy who emphatically said he wasn't interested in Delphi because it didn't do anything good for his CV.
Let's face it, almost everything is a commandline environment compared with VB, Delphi and Pascal.
MarkMLl
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Delphi is not as popular, because it is not free and was too expensive
Lazarus is not as popular, because the companies use Delphi anyways. Especially when they see how many bugs fpc/lazarus have. It is hardly usable for professional work.
ntu repositories, I say, in the control file, that its dependent on FPC and Lazarus. Of course I mean LCL but the way to get LCL available is to install Lazarus.
I have tried to submit my app somewhere and it was rejected because of this. "We only add it, if we can compile it ourselves on our build server", "We cannot install an IDE on our server. Lazarus is an IDE. Make a version without Lazarus"
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> in the control file, that its dependent on FPC and Lazarus. Of course I mean LCL but the way to get LCL available is to install Lazarus.
I have tried to submit my app somewhere and it was rejected because of this. "We only add it, if we can compile it ourselves on our build server", "We cannot install an IDE on our server. Lazarus is an IDE. Make a version without Lazarus"
Its easy to build a 'Lazarus' app on the auto build server of, for example Ubuntu. In the control file, you specify the build environment separately from the run environment. So, if you say that the build needs fpc >=3.0.4 and Lazarus >=2.0.6 and target Focal, then the build server first installed those things from its own (official or PPA) repositories and runs your build command. I would prefer to have a later Lazarus but its not available, I make sure my app does things that need 2.0.8 inside some ifdef braces.
Search the Ubuntu PPA for tomboy-ng and you will see my early attempts ! See the link below to my github repo, in the debian directory is a working control file.
I actually build with a script that uses lazbuild to compile a dependency package and calls fpc directly to compile the actual app itself.
I am in discussion with debian, we have some issues but it does not relate in any way to not wanting to compile with fpc.
Davo
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I have tried to submit my app somewhere and it was rejected because of this. "We only add it, if we can compile it ourselves on our build server", "We cannot install an IDE on our server. Lazarus is an IDE. Make a version without Lazarus"
Is there an equivalent to make bigide which builds the entire LCL etc. plus lazbuild i.e. without the IDE? Because that's what should be being exposed to the various repos that take that attitude.
MarkMLl
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Is there an equivalent to make bigide which builds the entire LCL etc. plus lazbuild i.e. without the IDE? Because that's what should be being exposed to the various repos that take that attitude.
make lazbuild [enter]
But is not really helpful in the remote build models because they want things built using the own production tools. I have some scripts that do build a minimal lazarus install to enable my app to be compiled.
Davo
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The icon?
Edit: I mean any reason can be valid for the final user.
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You may also consider to use fpGUI or MSEgui widgetset.
In that case, only a fpc command line is needed to compile a application, no IDE nor anything else to install.
Fre;D
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You may also consider to use fpGUI or MSEgui widgetset.
In that case, only a fpc command line is needed to compile a application, no IDE nor anything else to install.
Fre;D
I tested it and also made some controls for it, really good. I'm currently not using it at work so I didn't continue to make the controls but is nice to have alpha blended controls that can have focus in a cross platform way. Really worth to try.
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And I met one guy who emphatically said he wasn't interested in Delphi because it didn't do anything good for his CV.
He probably was only proficient in Delphi?
Real programmers know - and are proficient in - more than one language. The language is just a tool, not the thing you can build a career on.
Although some - stubbornly - disagree, I would never hire somebody that is stuck to the knowledge of one single language: good understanding of algorithms and data structures are much more important, as well as a good understanding of logic in general. The language does not matter at all.
Mentioning Delphi - or FreePascal -, so basically Object Pascal, along with a host of other languages (at least 4|) is an asset: it shows you can work with anything.
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I tested it and also made some controls for it, really good.
I really like your BGRAGUI Controls : https://github.com/bgrabitmap/bgragui/tree/dev-bgragui
Fre;D
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That's the question.
The main point of Phython, at least from my point of view, is that is interpreter and easy to learn, similar as BASIC was back in the day. With many lib available, it is possible to accomplish almost anything in less steps and on many platforms. Nowadays, it is used in academic circles and universities as a primary language.
Pascal is dead long time ago. Even it is used primarily as a language to teach students basics steps in computer science and until Borland, generally it was just a toy. But indeed, since now many programming languages are free of charge, Web oriented and well established, Pascal is pretty much outdated. Delphi as well, I do not see many compaties use it nowadays and offer jobs, at least in my country, except banks.
While this FPC/Lazarus comunity lives and developing and bug fixing is continuing with anyway slow rate, I believe Pascal will live as well, at least to give some signs of life - then will be forgotten as many other langages in the past.
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Pascal is dead long time ago. Even it is used primarily as a language to teach students basics steps in computer science and until Borland, generally it was just a toy.
UCSD Pascal that spawned bytecode interpreters, and the basis of all current JITs ? Wirth's credits on Ada and Java resp language and VM definition ?
The "Pascal is dead" is just some stupid kneejerk from haters. Silly.
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The "Pascal is dead" is just some stupid kneejerk from haters. Silly.
Watch your laguage!
You call yourself FPC developer, but you do not know a grasp of computer science, nor you know how to behaves.
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Can't we just stop these beauty contests between languages, either you like Pascal and use it or you don't and just move on.
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You call yourself FPC developer, but you do not know a grasp of computer science, nor you know how to behaves.
Now you got me angry... You can check in what kind of science did his major....
I guess you do not have any ? >:( >:D
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You call yourself FPC developer, but you do not know a grasp of computer science, nor you know how to behaves.
That really is not necessary. Please don't continue in that vein, you do yourself a disservice.
MarkMLl
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You call yourself FPC developer, but you do not know a grasp of computer science, nor you know how to behaves.
Now you got me angry... You can check in what kind of science did his major....
I guess you do not have any ? >:( >:D
When he gives self liberty to spits and insults around you are happy? How many poisoned persons can be found here, Gosh!
According what he wrote about recent threads regarding implicit conversion issue, he shows he does not know what he is talked about. I would gladly read his academic biography, if he have it published somewhere.
Florian at least have his PhD. And he was probably abandoned his "pet" project long time ago in favore of his academic career.
Let see how long FPC/Lazarus project wiill survive...
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Marco has an M.sc from a prestigious University (Eindhoven) . You don't
All of the core team have at least a degree.
I will leave this conversation.
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@process_1: Please stop. I grant that Marco made an opinionated statement, but *YOU* have just dragged the topic into the mud.
The topic is not "Pascal rules the World and let's keep it that way", and it's not "every other language sucks". It's a straightforward discourse on the strengths of Pascal vs Python, I grant that it could have been rather more technical e.g. as regards the mutability aspect but detailed understanding of such things is probably beyond most programmers so why bother?
MarkMLl
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@process_1: Please stop. I grant that Marco made an opinionated statement, but *YOU* have just dragged the topic into the mud.
Don't be a hypocrite you too!
Marcov reacted as a spoiled infant kid and clearly and shamelessly insults. That is tolerable as he is global moderator and the FPC dev here? I had to react.
You have a "Report to moderator" button, be my guest to report me to him. ;)
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The main point of Phython, at least from my point of view, is that is interpreter and easy to learn, similar as BASIC was back in the day. With many lib available, it is possible to accomplish almost anything in less steps and on many platforms. Nowadays, it is used in academic circles and universities as a primary language.
Python's unusual rise has a lot to do with the Linux community and distros, as a scripting language that came along at the right time and could be used instead of bash, csh, awk, etc... It was a "unifier" on that OS. It then allowed Linux users to bring it along with them, when using computers loaded with Windows. As the Linux community tended to be tech savvy, they built a lot of libraries. This appeared to "brew" for a while, then caught on in academic circles and universities. Its trajectory is unusual, compared to the huge companies that fueled the expansion of the other popular languages, at present. C was sparked by AT&T/Bell Labs, and lots of heavy hitters along the way. C# by Microsoft, Java by Sun/Oracle, etc... JavaScript was made the standard for browsers, so given a monopoly (for the time being). If you look at the less popular languages, you will often see they weren't as lucky with timing, nor created by or got backing by major corporations.
Debatably, Python got lucky. Because in many respects, many other languages could and can take its place, and it's a mess:
1) Python brings backward compatibility, version madness, and community splits with Python 2 VS Python 3, or even Python 3.5 VS Python 3.8
2) Python indentation burns the eyes and makes many crazy (off-side rule madness)
3) Many aren't fond of Python's pass-by-object-reference; change to the variable changes the reference everywhere, then it's like globals everywhere
4) Python is slower than other languages, and not suited for various tasks
5) No need to declare a variable or function, so mistype a variable name or function, then get an unexpected surprise
6) Variable names can be reused for something with a different type, more unexpected surprises now await
Not saying Python is the worse thing ever, but lets not act like it's for everyone. Many hate it, many love it.
Pascal is dead long time ago. Even it is used primarily as a language to teach students basics steps in computer science and until Borland, generally it was just a toy. But indeed, since now many programming languages are free of charge, Web oriented and well established, Pascal is pretty much outdated. Delphi as well, I do not see many compaties use it nowadays and offer jobs, at least in my country, except banks...
The argument about jobs is relative. Because not everybody is/wants to work for a company as a professional programmer. There are hobbyist, independent software developers, small business owners that create programs for their company, freelancers, students, etc... Even if the person is/wants to be a professional programmer: A) They can know multiple programming languages. B) They can find a niche, where they make money. So if the niche was working for banks, and they got paid well, I'm sure they will be fine.
This bizarre echo chamber to say every language not in the perceived/reported top 10 is "dead", is also ridiculous. Anybody can search Google, and see people saying Pascal or Delphi is dead, for the last 15 years. Yet, here we are. Embarcadero is still making money selling Delphi, and still putting out new releases. RemObjects is still selling Oxygene. Free Pascal and Lazarus are still here, with updates. Yes, I'm sure Microsoft wants people to say every language not C#, is "dead", because they want everyone hooked on their product. But not everyone loves C#.
And if Object Pascal/Delphi is still being taught in schools around the world (Russia, Brazil, South Africa, Turkey, etc...) then clearly the language is not going to die any time within the next 15 years either.
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I have a question: where is the guy who started this thread?
Because I saw a lot of threads like this and it is always the same movie.
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My 2 cents,
You can read the book "Manias, Panics and Crashes", and transpose it to computer languages. Such things also happen in this sector. The crowd is not always right. It self-infers, likes to remain reflective with itself to reassure itself.
Less than 10 years ago "Ruby on rails" was the official successor to Php, at least. Really. Only the last of its "Mohicans" still believe in this, today.
Lazarus has incredible possibilities: reuse code in C (libraries), cross-compile for RaspBerry (access to the electronic world), create interfaces for x11, ... There is only the C that allows this. AFAIK, Python can't.
I have a question: where is the guy who started this thread?
Because I saw a lot of threads like this and it is always the same movie.
:D :D :D
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Nobody threw anything which could be interpreted as an insult around until you did. Now please stop.
MarkMLl
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I have a question: where is the guy who started this thread?
Because I saw a lot of threads like this and it is always the same movie.
But as a fair question it deserves reflection, irrespective of OP's motive.
MarkMLl
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Marco has an M.sc from a prestigious University (Eindhoven) .
Nope I don't. I never finished(I was about 80% through though), instead I got an CS/IT bachelor.
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Hi!
Where are you with your discussion?????
I've studied this, I have a bachelor for that, ......
Are we here at the conservative party?
Or the Lehmann Brother Bank????
I've studied my whole live idiots .
That helped a lot .
Winni
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That's the question.
I interpreted "Lazarus" as "Pascal" so that your question would be easier (more appropriate) to answer.
My 19 year old loves the fact that he doesn't have to think too hard about what he is doing in advance, and so he's happier with a dynamic, interpreted language like python, over a language like Pascal. (He knows both, but is becoming more proficient in Python due to the above.)
He's also doing a fair bit of AI work and robotics, and feels that there are more ready-made libraries and examples for Python available in these areas as compared to Pascal.
I give him zero points for the first observation, but he does get some points for the second observation.
I also tease him about how all that flexibility burns him as his code grows and gets more complex, but he shrugs it off until he's in need of a troubleshooting session. :) I also make fun of him for performance of the final code. And he makes fun of me because he doesn't have to worry about strong typing.
This anecdotal account is statistically invalid, but I suspect that there are similar experiences by enough other people to make it worthwhile to mention.
Popularity is just that, though.
So, why do you ask?!?
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Especially when they see how many bugs fpc/lazarus have. It is hardly usable for professional work.
Have you seen the bugs in Java? Quantity and severity?
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Debatably, Python got lucky. Because in many respects, many other languages could and can take its place, and it's a mess:
1) Python brings backward compatibility, version madness, and community splits with Python 2 VS Python 3, or even Python 3.5 VS Python 3.8
2) Python indentation burns the eyes and makes many crazy (off-side rule madness)
3) Many aren't fond of Python's pass-by-object-reference; change to the variable changes the reference everywhere, then it's like globals everywhere
4) Python is slower than other languages, and not suited for various tasks
5) No need to declare a variable or function, so mistype a variable name or function, then get an unexpected surprise
6) Variable names can be reused for something with a different type, more unexpected surprises now await
Not saying Python is the worse thing ever, but lets not act like it's for everyone. Many hate it, many love it.
Good synopsis. I've been burned (by way of my wayward offspring :D ) on #2, #5 and #6
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Watch your laguage!
You call yourself FPC developer, but you do not know a grasp of computer science, nor you know how to behaves.
Your posts don't set an example in any of those areas.
I had to react.
Consider learning to react a little better. You obviously don't have a PhD in Diplomacy/International Relations (consider an introductory course, it would probably be good for you.)
Another thing you should consider, the only thing your last few posts achieve is to make you look bad.
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@process_1: kindly do not PM me attempting to justify your behaviour.
This was a fairly civil discussion until you chose to lower the tone. I for one do not entirely subscribe to the view that Pascal has a great future ahead of it, however both FPC and Lazarus are useful tools and a number of people have done interesting work exploring how modern extensions such as templates/generics can be incorporated into the overall linguistic framework.
If, as is possible, OP asked his question as part of a sociological experiment, then he has probably noted that it was a single user who caused trouble. I've seen such things happen before.
MarkMLl
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@process_1: kindly do not PM me attempting to justify your behaviour.
Who are you that I need to justify to you anythingh? I just suggest you to back off from my back and watch your own business!
You are hardly in position to bring any conslusions, so just keep your opinion for yourself, it doesn't matter to me anytihing at all.
Instead, analyze marcov's reactions, behaior and language.
At end, you, and other poltrons here have "Report" and ability to "Ignore" users. Be my guest.
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Less than 10 years ago "Ruby on rails" was the official successor to Php, at least. Really. Only the last of its "Mohicans" still believe in this, today.
That exactly reflects my feeling too. One should always consider the alternatives at the time, and also their exact incarnation (read: framework), not just the name of the language.
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Have you seen the bugs in Java? Quantity and severity?
I have not encountered bugs in Java
That is the point
Less than 10 years ago "Ruby on rails" was the official successor to Php, at least. Really. Only the last of its "Mohicans" still believe in this, today.
That exactly reflects my feeling too. One should always consider the alternatives at the time, and also their exact incarnation (read: framework), not just the name of the language.
Just like when I thought Delphi was the future of UI development
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Less than 10 years ago "Ruby on rails" was the official successor to Php, at least. Really. Only the last of its "Mohicans" still believe in this, today.
That exactly reflects my feeling too. One should always consider the alternatives at the time, and also their exact incarnation (read: framework), not just the name of the language.
Just like when I thought Delphi was the future of UI development
Well, I still deliver VCL apps after 20 years, 15 years of which in my current job from basically the same codebase, so how bad can it be? ;)
Seriously, the point was more that when you are deciding development target to consider more than just language (so tooling, framework, reuse of current codebases (*) etc). Also keep your requirements straight and narrow, and don't be tempted to add too many new wishes at once as "nice to haves".
The most extreme example was a boss nagging in the decision process to have it "portable" (because he had a Mac, and about 1% of the customers too), but when we really started already canning it after one week as it being to expensive. I learned from that if people want to add requirements, I immediately ask them allocate extra budget for it. Usually that settles it :_)
(*) whole rewrites nearly always are behind on target.
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Have you seen the bugs in Java? Quantity and severity?
I have not encountered bugs in Java
That is the point
Our own experiences with product bugs might impact our decisions to use or not use something, but that doesn't determine whether or not a product definitively has bugs.
I have many developer colleagues that have experienced plenty of Java bugs, and each quarter a slew of such bugs are addressed (I care mostly about the security bugs, personally).
I've had only a few bugs in FPC/Lazarus that have impacted me to any degree, and I was able to work around them.
DISCLAIMER: I am not a professional developer, so my needs are not the same as many, and I realize that. And I have seen some of the bugs that folks have submitted, and can appreciate how they might impact others. But, overall, the level of bugs does not appear to be significant relative to what I am aware of in other products/projects.
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Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
My 2 cents:
As my salesperson would say: when you only know the hammer, you see nails everywhere :P .