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Other Languages => Russian => Topic started by: Fred vS on July 31, 2021, 03:39:32 pm

Title: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on July 31, 2021, 03:39:32 pm
Привет.

Совершенно вне контекста.
Я заметил, что Google Translate работает намного лучше для перевода с русского на французский.
В большинстве случаев перевод с английского на французский дает непонятные результаты.
(Я не знаю, правильно ли работает перевод с французского на русский, который я использую для этого поста.)

Fre;D
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Alextp on July 31, 2021, 04:19:52 pm
Yes, FR->RU works pretty good here.
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on July 31, 2021, 04:36:05 pm
Code: Pascal  [Select][+][-]
  1. Yes, FR->RU works pretty good here.

Good to know.

For example, in MSEgui project there are very few documentation in English and German.
Translate it into French using Google Translate needs lot of work after, lot of things are incomprehensible.

But there are lot of demos and documentation in Russian and the translation from Russian into French needs very few corrections.

By the way, what is the result translating from English to Russian?
Is it as good as French to Russian ?

I was thinking that Google Translate uses the English language as reference (Lang to translate --> English --> Lang translated) but obviously, they use a other algorithm.

Fre;D
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Alextp on July 31, 2021, 04:51:31 pm
And now I tried. En->Ru works pretty good!
I tested it on your long comment.
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on July 31, 2021, 04:58:23 pm
And now I tried. En->Ru works pretty good!
I tested it on your long comment.

Ha ok.

I ask this to know if it is better to use a English text and use Google Translate En -> Ru or use instead the French translated text (with corrections) and Google Translate Fr -> Ru to have better result.

In any case, there is still lot of work for Google Translate to translate correctly from English, German, Dutch -> French.

Fre;D
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Alextp on July 31, 2021, 05:04:40 pm
I think better the simpler: ie En->Ru, and do the Fr->Ru if it's needed for some text.
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno on July 31, 2021, 05:11:29 pm
Hey Fre;D,

Are you sure that Google Translate uses English as an intermediary route to the final translation?

Cuz that would be absolutely nonsensical due to the fact that English has no root affinity WHATSOEVER with any language.
Yeah, it borrows, begs and steals from a lot of them, but shares no real roots (historic, morphologic and whatnot) with many of the european languages, at least the middle(Latin) and east ones(Norse and Rusky).

And I can be really wrong but Latin and Russian are not that far apart in terms of language roots. But then again, I may be very wrong on that :)

Cheers,
Gus
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Alextp on July 31, 2021, 05:14:55 pm
I also think that so simple+plain language cannot be used as a buffer language, we will lose many things.
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on July 31, 2021, 05:21:48 pm
I think better the simpler: ie En->Ru, and do the Fr->Ru if it's needed for some text.

For me it is the same because I will always begin from English-German -> French then make corrections.
But I am happy to know that En -> Ru -> En -> Ru understand each other.

So maybe I will have better result for French to do En-De -> Ru, then Ru -> French.

Ok, I will try.

Thanks Alex.

Fre;D
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Alextp on July 31, 2021, 05:28:14 pm
So Ru is a good 'buffer language' - seems you want to say this.
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on July 31, 2021, 05:31:15 pm
Hey Fre;D,
Are you sure that Google Translate uses English as an intermediary route to the final translation?

Absolutely no, It was the first touch, (comparing with i18n).

Cuz that would be absolutely nonsensical ...

Hum,  :)  but  :-X .

Fre;D
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on July 31, 2021, 05:32:58 pm
So Ru is a good 'buffer language' - seems you want to say this.

For French it is a serious challenger (comparing with the champion En).
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Seenkao on July 31, 2021, 11:28:46 pm
Перевод с русского на английский и обратно работает неплохо. Я постоянно этим пользуюсь в настоящее время. Но! Для более точного перевода, мне приходится переводить несколько раз. Сначала на английский, потом на русский, чтобы проверить, более точно, хорошо ли был сформирован перевод и пойму ли я сам то, что было переведено.

Думаю, для лучшего перевода, лучше пользоваться услугами хорошего человека-переводчика.  :)

Google translate:
Translation from Russian to English and vice versa works well. I use it all the time nowadays. But! For a more accurate translation, I have to translate several times. First into English, then into Russian, in order to check, more precisely, whether the translation was well formed and whether I myself understand what was translated.

I think for a better translation it is better to use the services of a good human translator. :)
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: winni on July 31, 2021, 11:50:53 pm
Hey Fre;D,

Are you sure that Google Translate uses English as an intermediary route to the final translation?

Cuz that would be absolutely nonsensical due to the fact that English has no root affinity WHATSOEVER with any language.
Yeah, it borrows, begs and steals from a lot of them, but shares no real roots (historic, morphologic and whatnot) with many of the european languages, at least the middle(Latin) and east ones(Norse and Rusky).

And I can be really wrong but Latin and Russian are not that far apart in terms of language roots. But then again, I may be very wrong on that :)

Cheers,
Gus


Hi!

Near topic, real life:

That's what is happening in the European Parlament: English (or French or German) as Intermediate Language for simultaneous interpretation.

Background: They are searching eager for example for interpreters between Danish and Portugese.  They don't find.
One of the reasons: simultaneous interpreters are ruined at the age of 50.

Perhaps now is understood what kind of tutti-frutti-info is translated to the minor langages.

Winni

 
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on August 01, 2021, 12:54:54 am
That's what is happening in the European Parlament: English (or French or German) as Intermediate Language for simultaneous interpretation.

Hum, I still dont understand why in the European Parliament, English is still the king.
Afaik, no one country in EU speaks English.

They all are talking about independence vs US but still use their language as main language (that is not used by any members of EU).

 %)

Fre;D
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on August 01, 2021, 01:16:14 am
Думаю, для лучшего перевода, лучше пользоваться услугами хорошего человека-переводчика.  :)

Google translate:
I think for a better translation it is better to use the services of a good human translator. :)

Of course!

Background: They are searching eager for example for interpreters between Danish and Portugese.  They don't find.
One of the reasons: simultaneous interpreters are ruined at the age of 50.

But in 2021, with human helicopters on Mars, maybe a better "buffer language" could be found for IT translations.
It is obvious that English is not the good choice for "buffer language" for the EU community.
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: dseligo on August 01, 2021, 03:43:13 am
Afaik, no one country in EU speaks English.

Ireland?
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: skalogryz on August 01, 2021, 05:50:25 am
Думаю, для лучшего перевода, лучше пользоваться услугами хорошего человека-переводчика.  :)
не-не-не нужно самому учить языки ))

во всяком случае для разговора. Для документации - да, нужен профи.
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on August 01, 2021, 03:58:39 pm
Afaik, no one country in EU speaks English.

Ireland?

The first official language of Ireland Republic is Irish, not English ( who is second ).
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: winni on August 01, 2021, 05:22:13 pm
Hi!

The EU has 24 official languages.

These are:

    Bulgarian
    Croatian
    Czech
    Danish
    Dutch
    English
    Estonian
    Finnish
    French
    German
    Greek
    Hungarian
    Irish
    Italian
    Latvian
    Lithuanian
    Maltese
    Polish
    Portuguese
    Romanian
    Slovak
    Slovenian
    Spanish
    Swedish

An special position is Malta:
400.000 inhabitants and nearly everybody is speaking english (second official language). But Maltese is an official language.

Politics never was related to logic.

Winni
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on August 01, 2021, 06:03:14 pm
Hi!

The EU has 24 official languages.

These are:

    Bulgarian
    Croatian
    Czech
    Danish
    Dutch
    English
    Estonian
    Finnish
    French
    German
    Greek
    Hungarian
    Irish
    Italian
    Latvian
    Lithuanian
    Maltese
    Polish
    Portuguese
    Romanian
    Slovak
    Slovenian
    Spanish
    Swedish

An special position is Malta:
400.000 inhabitants and nearly everybody is speaking english (second official language). But Maltese is an official language.

Politics never was related to logic.

Winni

Hum, yes but no one country has English as first official language in EU.

All that said, since the tower of Babel, there has not been much progress in IT translation.

I just try https://iz.ru/news translated into French.
Ok, I can understand (but it is far from perfect).

But much better than https://www.thetimes.co.uk/ translated into French.
There I can understand only the images, most of the text is totally incomprehensible.
 
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: winni on August 01, 2021, 07:37:19 pm

All that said, since the tower of Babel, there has not been much progress in IT translation.


Hi!

If you analyse it down to the nitty gritty then a translation app

* must have the knowledge of an adult person
* must have a big knowledge about the fine tunig of different vocabularies
* must dectect irony or jokes

- among a lot other problems. Some inuit languages own 20 different  terms for snow. How to translate?

It will take a lot of time until translating apps can replace  people

Winni
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: funlw65 on August 02, 2021, 09:44:34 am
That's what is happening in the European Parlament: English (or French or German) as Intermediate Language for simultaneous interpretation.

Hum, I still dont understand why in the European Parliament, English is still the king.
Afaik, no one country in EU speaks English.

They all are talking about independence vs US but still use their language as main language (that is not used by any members of EU).

 %)

Fre;D

Well, because all know English already. Ok, then, if you want English to be excluded, what language do you propose in exchange?  And please, do that without generating a huge diplomatic scandal :) . Anyway, whatever European language you might choose, you force others to learn a new language - there is no time for that, in how many years they would become proficient?
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on August 02, 2021, 12:02:47 pm
That's what is happening in the European Parlament: English (or French or German) as Intermediate Language for simultaneous interpretation.

Hum, I still dont understand why in the European Parliament, English is still the king.
Afaik, no one country in EU speaks English.

They all are talking about independence vs US but still use their language as main language (that is not used by any members of EU).

 %)

Fre;D

Well, because all know English already. Ok, then, if you want English to be excluded, what language do you propose in exchange?  And please, do that without generating a huge diplomatic scandal :) . Anyway, whatever European language you might choose, you force others to learn a new language - there is no time for that, in how many years they would become proficient?

I dont want to exclude English, but, as told some friends who work in EU commission as translators, sometime better that people use a known language by themselves to express a opinion.

For example Charles Michel, the President of EU council, has French as native language.

He decided to communicate in English in the EU commission but, sadly, because of his poor English and accent very pronounced, it is a hard work for translators to understand him, all said better to use French, for them it will be easier to understand.

And if it would be easier for human translator, maybe it will be easier too for a hypothetical IT automatic European translator.
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: dseligo on August 02, 2021, 12:28:49 pm
Afaik, no one country in EU speaks English.

Ireland?

The first official language of Ireland Republic is Irish, not English ( who is second ).

I don't know which language is first or second official, but AFAIK most people in Ireland communicate in English.
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on August 02, 2021, 01:26:59 pm
Вернемся к теме темы

Traduction:
To come back to the subject of the topic

I did try to use Google translate for https://elpais.com/ (Es who is a Latin language too) into French.
And, strangely, the result is very bad, quasi incomprehensible.

The same for https://www.cmjornal.pt/ (Pt who is a Latin language too) into French.
Bad result.

До сих пор русский язык для французского является лучшим «буферным» языком.

Translated:
Till now, for French, Russian is the best "buffer" language.

But I will try with others, let see.
Title: Re: овершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Seenkao on August 03, 2021, 12:08:10 am
Вернемся к теме темы
Извиняюсь, поправлю. по русски пишется: "Вернёмся к теме".  :)

Если вы француз, то вам, вероятно проще будет пользоваться именно русским языком - как буферным. Русский язык достаточно сложный. И понятно, что сложные русские фразы вы ни когда не переведёте без хорошего переводчика. Пользуясь Google-переводчиком, мне приходится "упрощать" фразы, для того, чтоб они имели правильный смысл на другом языке (и без разницы какой это язык). Но! Google-переводчик больше основывается именно на этих двух языках Русский и Английский. Почему? Я не знаю. Может в этом виноваты сами русские, которые внесли довольно немалый вклад различными фразами, для хорошего перевода (я не всегда доверяю переводу, и что-то перевожу с помощью словаря).

С другими языками (при перевода с Русского на другой язык и обратно) это работает на много хуже. И подозреваю, что с Английским и другим языком (не Русским), ситуация повторяется.

Google translate:
I apologize, I will correct it. in Russian it is written: "Вернёмся к теме". :)

If you are French, then it will probably be easier for you to use Russian as a buffer. The Russian language is quite difficult. And it is clear that you will never translate complex Russian phrases without a good translator. Using Google translator, I have to "simplify" phrases so that they have the correct meaning in another language (and no matter what language it is). But! Google Translate is more based on these two languages ​​Russian and English. Why? I dont know. Maybe the Russians themselves are to blame for this, who made a fairly significant contribution in various phrases for a good translation (I do not always trust the translation, and I translate something with the help of a dictionary).

With other languages ​​(when translating from Russian into another language and vice versa) it works much worse. And I suspect that with English and another language (not Russian), the situation is the same.

Ну вот, опять пришлось упрощать текст.  ::)

Вообще, мне писали модераторы этого форума, что по правилам форума, я должен стараться переводить на английский язык текст, который я пишу.
Я конечно извиняюсь! Но вы находитесь на русскоязычном форуме. Большая просьба к пользователям (и модераторам!) обращать на это внимание! И хотелось бы чтоб это было взаимно. Переводите пожалуйста публикуемый текст! :-[ (я даже на русском форуме его на английский перевожу :)).

Надеюсь ни кого не обидел!
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Fred vS on August 03, 2021, 12:37:06 am
И хотелось бы чтоб это было взаимно. Переводите пожалуйста публикуемый текст! :-[ (я даже на русском форуме его на английский перевожу :)).


Ты абсолютно прав.
Извините меня.
 :-[

(Я не француз, но еще говорю по-французски.)

В любом случае, даже если Google Translate дает удовлетворительные результаты русский> французский, предстоит еще много работы, прежде чем конкурировать с переводчиком-человеком.

А для всех других языков> французского работа огромна.

Traduction:

(I'm not French but I also speak French.)

In any case, even if Google Translate gives satisfactory results Russian -> French, there is still a lot of work before competing with a human translator.

And for all the other languages -> French, the work is gigantic.

Fre;D

Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: skalogryz on August 10, 2021, 05:41:50 am
почитал перевод с арабского, в соседней теме!
очень даже хороший перевод!
Title: Re: Cовершенно вне контекста.
Post by: Seenkao on September 23, 2021, 11:15:18 am
Привет!
Я перешёл на яндекс-переводчик. И заметил, что он довольно неплохо переводит не только с английского, но и с других языков на русский и обратно. Я не знаю, насколько хорошо он "заточен" под другие языки английский-испанский (для примера) потому что, как я понимаю, яндекс как раз и создавался русскими... )))

Yandex translate:
Hi!
I switched to yandex-translate. And I noticed that he translates quite well not only from English, but also from other languages to Russian and back. I do not know how well it is "sharpened" for other languages English-Spanish (for example) because, as I understand it, Yandex was created by Russians... )))
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