Lazarus

Miscellaneous => Other => Topic started by: Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno on September 21, 2021, 07:25:53 pm

Title: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno on September 21, 2021, 07:25:53 pm
Hey Y'all,

After the big move away from the server that shall not be mentioned, where have we settled in terms of the transition?

Cheers,
Gus
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: trev on September 22, 2021, 12:26:54 am
Back here on the Fora, judging by our IRC advocate's recent posts ;-)
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno on September 22, 2021, 12:50:45 am
Hey Trev,

Back here on the Fora, judging by our IRC advocate's recent posts ;-)

Really?

I never read all the posts on that thread that discussed the migration. Or at least I thought a migration would be implied.

So does this means that all those years of IRC legacy are now vanished?

I'm rather sad for that cuz I spent most of my Uni years chatting so happily on the Portuguese IRC network and I have fond memories and miss the friends I made there.

Cheers,
Gus
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno on September 22, 2021, 01:08:24 am
Hey Y'all,

Just had a look at the Libera server and they do exist there and Joanna is present.

But the head count is rather low. Well, to be honest I didn't know how was the head count on the unmentionable server, but it is low in terms of numbers...

Well, that;s life...

Cheers,
Gus
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Joanna on September 22, 2021, 04:43:37 am
It would be great to have more people come to chat in irc. Many questions I have are small things that aren’t really suitable for forum posts
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno on September 22, 2021, 05:00:17 am
Hey Joanna,

It would be great to have more people come to chat in irc. Many questions I have are small things that aren’t really suitable for forum posts

Hummm, I've never seen anyone here having an issue with trivial or small things being asked.

I've seen many questions that are not that profound being asked and answered in the always polite and informative fashion that these fora are rather famous for...

And if politeness is not used, the moderators are swift to nip that in the bud, from my experience. I've been on the offending side and I've been put in my place, and deserved it, more than once :)

While I do understand that you feel more at home in the IRC environment, I think it's a bit limiting to only pursue one avenue of knowledge.

Nonetheless, I'll be parking my but on the IRC, from time to time, so you'll have my help there in any way I can give.

Glad to have you come round and have a say on this post, cheers for that!!

Cheers,
Gus
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: trev on September 22, 2021, 08:32:35 am
Many questions I have are small things that aren’t really suitable for forum posts

You obviously haven't been reading the fora very much ;-)
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Joanna on September 22, 2021, 04:59:22 pm
I only search forum for things I’m having difficulty with. Forums seem formal so I only post if I have a well thought out problem.

 I prefer irc for casual chat but the person who I used to talk to for years on freenode  can’t seem to make it to the new network and the other person who was very  helpful on freenode  is on Libera but does not talk anymore.
I guess you could say I’m getting desperate.
I’m not sure what I’ll do if people disappear off the forum like they did from irc..
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno on September 22, 2021, 11:09:24 pm
Hey Joanna.

I only search forum for things I’m having difficulty with. Forums seem formal so I only post if I have a well thought out problem.

I have to say Joanna, this forum kinda breaks the mould on that.
We have silly questions to high level algorithmic questions posed here, but ~95% of the daily questions are really simple or trivial things.

I think you got so used to the instant gratification drug that IRC provides and you kinda settled. But I have to say that this forum has it all.
From the most serious characters to the one that are always cracking a joke, to the outright crazy that no one really understands, but we revere their knowledge and don't ask silly questions about their weirdness ;)

So yeah, please feel at ease to ask any question that you have, nothing's that big, nor that small that the fora can't tackle.

Cheers,
Gus
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Joanna on September 23, 2021, 01:27:05 am
In irc it’s possible to have long conversations that stray off into other topics . In forums conversations like that get locked because they will interfere with other threads placement in the list. I don’t enjoy it when interesting conversations are suddenly locked. Therefore I prefer irc. Even though the forum allows conversations with more people in different time zones..as soon as the conversation is discovered to be different from original post topic it is  LOCKED!
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: skalogryz on September 23, 2021, 02:01:10 am
as a long time IRC channel sustainer, you might apply for a forum moderator status. (i'd think you'd be granted one)
and as a moderator you will be able to unlock any topic you like!
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno on September 23, 2021, 02:11:22 am
Hey Joanna,

In irc it’s possible to have long conversations that stray off into other topics . In forums conversations like that get locked because they will interfere with other threads placement in the list. I don’t enjoy it when interesting conversations are suddenly locked. Therefore I prefer irc. Even though the forum allows conversations with more people in different time zones..as soon as the conversation is discovered to be different from original post topic it is  LOCKED!

<sarcasm>Run-away threads that the moderators chip in? Nahhh, we never have those do we, peeps?</sarcasm>

Moderators here will lock a thread if it's getting too offensive or the arc is like 180º off course, anything that extreme gets my vote to be shutdown, but apart form that...

Jeezzz, have I followed threads that get ALL over the place, right?

Cheers,
Gus
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Martin_fr on September 23, 2021, 03:36:19 am
Well there is sometimes a diff between off topic to the thread and off-topic to the forum.
The latter would for example be talking about ways to grind coffee beans. And that would probably be shut down.

Also, I haven't should down any thread in hours, time to pick one at random ;) ;)

Worst case those interested, can continue by PM.



I am not an IRC user myself. But I also do not get the concept (as far as on-topic stuff goes).

If I would be on IRC, I would not sit in front of it all day long. Like the forum I could only check every now and then.
But by then, a lot of conversation could have happened (If there were many users, which is the desired state). So then, I would not want to read all of it. Where would I get a short overview, if any question/topic was raised on which I would want to participate?

As far as I can see, I would never know. So I would never participate (except if I started a topic / but then someone else needs to spot it).

I accept, that apparently it works for some people. But I haven't got the faintest idea how....



Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno on September 23, 2021, 03:47:14 am
Hey Martin,

The latter would for example be talking about ways to grind coffee beans. And that would probably be shut down.

What if the code that that runs the coffee grinder was compiled in --os=embedded --cpu=avr and was managing such grinding?

See, even coffee grinders have a place in this wonderful oasis of technology :P

Cheers,
Gus
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno on September 23, 2021, 03:55:03 am
Hey Martin,

I accept, that apparently it works for some people. But I haven't got the faintest idea how....

In the mid 90' I entered the world of IRC coming from the talkers. The only diff being them was that the talkers were not interconnected like IRC servers were. But it's was pretty much still chat.

So I've been on all the trends for chatting and getting help, like IRC and/or Forums. And like the flamewars over Programming Languages I have only one answer: The best tool for the job.

I do agree with you that you can't do/expect to do Forum stuff on IRC and the same is correct vice-versa.
So in my view, use both and that's that. But limiting oneself to one, is a bit of a situation where you lose opportunities.

Again, just my twopence :)

Cheers,
Gus
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Martin_fr on September 23, 2021, 04:51:24 am
Then my understanding was probably flawed by the mention of "asking questions on IRC". Which made me assume, that some knowledgeable or expert user would need to be present.

However if that come down to really simple questions that may not even be knowledge based, but instead rely on opinion or similar... Then I can see how it works, as mostly anyone can answer.

That is use IRC instead of talking to the wall.... :)

My tuppence worth...




EDIT: Btw, seems IRC is good for the two penny stuff. And the forum seems best when the monkey is on the table. ;)
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Marc on September 23, 2021, 10:29:52 am
In the early days of Lazarus Paul, Micha and I used IRC a lot to coordinate graphics development or the win32 development. At that time I was the European evening on line and Paul the Russian evening so we covered a pretty big part of a day.
In such case the questions asked got pretty quick answered.

When you are partially online, I prefer the forum, since you can give a response in your own time. Disadvantage is that you don't have an immediate answer. For what I'm coding now I sometimes wished I could contact the devels of some 3td party lib through IRC, but in most cases, some googling helped too.

Marc

Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Martin_fr on September 23, 2021, 01:31:46 pm
In the early days of Lazarus Paul, Micha and I used IRC a lot to coordinate graphics development or the win32 development. At that time I was the European evening on line and Paul the Russian evening so we covered a pretty big part of a day.
In such case the questions asked got pretty quick answered.
But that sounds more like a private chat. So you could have a bell (or even just notice any movement in the irc window). So you can do your work, and interrupt if you get pinged.
That makes sense, but seems to differ from what is being asked for.

But if you have a large community, then there would potentially be a constant flow of new irc messages. If you read them all, then that means you wont do anything else. I.e. you do IRC team (instead of other entertainment).
So then IRC (if as desired, with large community) is more an entertainment thing, than a question/answer information exchange?

Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Joanna on September 24, 2021, 03:38:39 am
You can’t move an interesting conversation in forum to private messages when it contains more than 2 people. With irc it’s very easy to create a new temporary channel to move a conversation to if it is interfering with the main channel. On the forum this is not possible except my making a new thread which would be permanent and clutter the forum.

My casual questions in irc require the opinions of experts and lately there is a shortage of people who can answer my questions in irc. For instance nobody in irc can tell me how to control the colors of the tcheckcombobox dropdown which is missing an ondraw event. Nobody at all.
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: skalogryz on September 24, 2021, 05:55:42 am
on the forum the history of the conversation is better traced. (IIRC chat don't have links to follow and are hard to dig through)
...Not to mention the history of attachments and code samples...
And this is very important in technical discussions. (Quite often forum might inspire a contents for the documentation and/or wiki)

and the ability to edit typos is absolutely amazing :)
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Marc on September 24, 2021, 10:48:04 am
In the early days of Lazarus Paul, Micha and I used IRC a lot to coordinate graphics development or the win32 development. At that time I was the European evening on line and Paul the Russian evening so we covered a pretty big part of a day.
In such case the questions asked got pretty quick answered.
But that sounds more like a private chat. So you could have a bell (or even just notice any movement in the irc window). So you can do your work, and interrupt if you get pinged.
That makes sense, but seems to differ from what is being asked for.

It sure was, most communication was on a private chat. As a side effect, we could answer the (public) channel questions.
If I look at my current work activities, not much changed, the only difference is that most communication is done through WhatsApp or Zoom chat.

Quote
But if you have a large community, then there would potentially be a constant flow of new irc messages. If you read them all, then that means you wont do anything else. I.e. you do IRC team (instead of other entertainment).
So then IRC (if as desired, with large community) is more an entertainment thing, than a question/answer information exchange?

If you have a large community, you also have a large group of ppl knowing an answer. However with the recent freenode actions, the community decreased, so it's quiet now.

Marc
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Joanna on September 24, 2021, 03:21:48 pm
I really don’t understand why some people have so many hang ups about moving from freenode to Libera . After new owner erased the databases it was more than obvious that it was time to move.

Irc has links and some clients offer a scroll back history but yes it’s clunky the conversations are enjoyed as they happen and end when people need to leave, often because it’s their bedtime.

So called modern apps are often spyware and dictate what client you have to use and often demand a phone number, which can be used for all sorts of undesirable things. Irc is far superior for people who value privacy and/or have a slow internet connection as I do.

One thing that’s kind of strange about irc lately is people who show up as guests and don’t bother to register and then demand that someone answer a question right away and then disappear and are never seen again. I don’t know who they are but it kind of feels like they are Coming there just to laugh at how inactive the #lazarus channel is.
 If I’m there I try to talk to them but they are kind of strange. Recently one of them kept demanding to know how to use the middle mouse button to paste in Cuda text app. I don’t know if he was trolling or not.

There is nothing wrong with IRC it just needs some active people who are knowledgeable in pascal. Even if people were only in irc semi afk for a few hours a day it would help a lot to improve the image of the projects.

I feel bad when someone asks a legitimate pascal related question in irc  and can’t get an answer.
I try to help but I am not an expert and I have to explain to them that most people who use pascal REFUSE to come to the irc channel. It’s embarrassing and awkward.
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: trev on September 25, 2021, 12:51:46 am
Quote
IRC usage has been declining steadily since 2003, losing 60 percent of its users (from 1 million to about 400,000 in 2021) and half of its channels (from half a million in 2003 to under 200,000 in 2021).

It is a fading technology. It's called progress.

I used to use IRC back in the day. Now I prefer to use Fora for the many reasons that have been done to death previously. So, yes, you could say that I refuse to use the clunky, old, outdated, unpopulated IRC. You are, of course, free to continue to do so while it exists.

As for being awkward and embarrassed when unable to answer someone's question, feel free to refer said lost souls to the Fora where they are bound to find/get at least one answer if not many more. You'll no longer need to be awkward and embarrassed :-)
Title: Re: Where have we settled in terms of IRC
Post by: Joanna on September 25, 2021, 02:52:45 am
I do send them to forum. I don’t find irc that hard to use the irc client, it does all the logging in for me. As for unpopulated that could be solved by people simply coming to irc and talking.
There is a concerted effort to get people to leave irc and move to other chat platforms where their data can be harvested and sold and their privacy invaded.That’s not progress from my standpoint.
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