With a 30 to 49 in the middle, the result graph will be grossly misleading.Yes, that's definitely a bit of a problem ... particularly in that range.
[…] get a few cold hard facts […]As far as users have stored their birthday with their user profiles, you can see their birthdays in the calendar (https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php?action=calendar). To be fair, out of privacy considerations I entered an arbitrary ±5% precise b-day date. Also this approach is obviously flawed, as is this poll: You’re limiting yourself to forum participants, but there are many more users out there.
[…] I'd like this thread to be deleted and the poll re-done with "better" ranges. […]Can’t you edit your opening post and check the “reset vote count” box? Maybe the subject could be more descriptive, because “Pascal lovers” has a bit of a suggestive undertone, no?
10-19
20-29
30-39
40-49
50-59
60+
60+ range is not good either.
It puts all old crocks under a single umbrella, and unlike the 30 to 49 error in range, this gives a 60 to >100 massive range.
And from what I see, there are many people over 60 here, so, at 74, I speak on their behalf and mine.
@Thaddy,Yes, but the causal is - I suspect, consider it a premise - that Pascal has been mostly dropped in academics, whereas it was common for the age range I mentioned.
The problem is the very low percentage of Pascal programmers that are less than 30 years old.
Plus there is the problem that a casual/hobby user of FPC/Lazarus ill not find it easy to find where to get help and find their way hereYeah, but that is often a case of rt*m. Freepascal comes with excellent manuals. Many questions asked on this forum can be answered by referring to the official documentation. (and partially the wiki)
from the poll and the data gathered by @Martin_fr, it can be seen that programmers under the age of 30 that use FPC is _less_ than 10 percent of the entire population.
Next, we don't know at what age people of the higher age groups picked up Pascal. What if half of those aged 40+ picked it up in the last 10 or 20 years?That would be interesting to know. I _speculate_ that the majority picked it up during he time Turbo Pascal and Delphi were popular, i.e, roughly mid eighties to early 2000s.
There are to many unknown factors to take anything from those numbers.I definitely have a tendency to agree with that but, being a Pascal "old-timer" myself (47 years programming, over 30 of them using Pascal among other languages) Pascal's history is also part of my history and, quite obvious that Pascal has lost an enormous amount of its popularity but, attempting to quantify that loss is fraught with problems (many of which you mentioned in your post.)
If I hadn't met Pascal at university, I wouldn't know this language today. The commercial dominance of web and mobile development will not allow the language to regain popularity until it becomes competitive in these market segments, as Delphi was in the 90s in the desktop development.
....
The problem is the very low percentage of Pascal programmers that are less than 30 years old.
OK, I am willing to take one for the team here !I think we'd all be willing to take one for the team that way and, if I knew what you need to do to wind your age back to 30, I'd be the first one doing it ;)
If you have a way to wind my age back to 30 I'll do it, let me know what I need to do.....
Davo
Yes forums are old school for young people. I think they use Facebook Messenger or Discord nowadays until something more cool replaces it.My theory about that is that young people have gotten used to instant attention and to a great extent instant gratification (or as close to instant as possible.)
But I'm more interested in what can we do to gain new users, any suggestions?I've asked and keep asking myself that question. Of course, there are no easy answers. One or two features isn't enough to attract new users. One of the best features of Pascal, which keeps me in the Pascal camp, is compilation speed, I suspect I'm not the only one that appreciates compiling tens of thousands of lines of code in a few tenth of a second. That speed changes the way one develops a program (in a significantly better way.)
Disadvantage ;But that is also a great advantage. I don't remember his exact words but, Einstein explained that he figured out special relativity because he asked himself a question a kid would ask himself and, as an adult, didn't stop until he got the answer.
You are constantly being asked why, how and why. Here, too, I use the Forum as an escape ramp.
..... But I'm more interested in what can we do to gain new users, any suggestions? ...
I've asked and keep asking myself that question. Of course, there are no easy answers. One or two features isn't enough to attract new users. One of the best features of Pascal, which keeps me in the Pascal camp, is compilation speed, I suspect I'm not the only one that appreciates compiling tens of thousands of lines of code in a few tenth of a second. That speed changes the way one develops a program (in a significantly better way.)
That probably explains why some of the most popular languages today are either interpreters or close to interpreters.
I think we should be able to guess, even without this pool, not much new programmers especially teens and fresh graduated ones are interested to learn Pascal. You know the reasons. The downfall of Delphi, big companies keep pushing new languages, the raise of mobile/web programming.
What can scare young people it's the number of Windows, menu and buttons of Lazarus :DI've tried to introduce Lazarus to my 16yo son and he was utterly confused from the abundance of detached windows and amount of properties. Unfortunately educationlaz package doesn't work any more.
I've tried to introduce Lazarus to my 16yo son and he was utterly confused from the abundance of detached windows and amount of properties. Unfortunately educationlaz package doesn't work any more.Introduce him using a Laz version with docked installed. That is not cluttered.
I did. It helped a bit but not much. BTW the docked form editor works in recent versions (still have some issues though), where the educationlaz doesn't. IMHO it will be worth the effort to fix it.I've tried to introduce Lazarus to my 16yo son and he was utterly confused from the abundance of detached windows and amount of properties. Unfortunately educationlaz package doesn't work any more.Introduce him using a Laz version with docked installed. That is not cluttered.
Today I searched for how to edit excel with android, and I get at least 4 youtube videos with tutorial about it. How many videos are for lazarus?Just a few picked from the top of my search window
I did. It helped a bit but not much. BTW the docked form editor works in recent versions (still have some issues though), where the educationlaz doesn't. IMHO it will be worth the effort to fix it.I've tried to introduce Lazarus to my 16yo son and he was utterly confused from the abundance of detached windows and amount of properties. Unfortunately educationlaz package doesn't work any more.Introduce him using a Laz version with docked installed. That is not cluttered.
You have to hide information because learning is possible only when someone almost know. You have to understand the background knowledge. Have to give out new stuff bit by bit.I did. It helped a bit but not much. BTW the docked form editor works in recent versions (still have some issues though), where the educationlaz doesn't. IMHO it will be worth the effort to fix it.I've tried to introduce Lazarus to my 16yo son and he was utterly confused from the abundance of detached windows and amount of properties. Unfortunately educationlaz package doesn't work any more.Introduce him using a Laz version with docked installed. That is not cluttered.
from the poll and the data gathered by @Martin_fr, it can be seen that programmers under the age of 30 that use FPC is _less_ than 10 percent of the entire population.
Next, we don't know at what age people of the higher age groups picked up Pascal. What if half of those aged 40+ picked it up in the last 10 or 20 years?
In other words, if those who picked up Pascal in the last 10,20 or 30 years where spread across all age groups, then the older a group, the longer that group had to accumulate members.
There are to many unknown factors to take anything from those numbers.
Young people need advice. Indeed, youth heeds the emotions rather than reason, and emotions and desires are blind; they do not consider the consequences
Today I searched for how to edit excel with android, and I get at least 4 youtube videos with tutorial about it. How many videos are for lazarus?Just a few picked from the top of my search window
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jJ1FNfLwuU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VPvQ_dXMhw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1YOaMQHMUI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wA3p2JqmvI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW2s1IaiL_s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcE0Zelr8r0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk3xjW4G-kw
Lazarus is a fine IDE, but Visual Studio Code has mind share. This is the VSC Pascal extension I've installed, though I haven't used it much: Omni Pascal (http://"https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=Wosi.omnipascal"). It is last updated Feb 2022.
Not everyone working with Free Pascal is doing GUI programming.
Today I searched for how to edit excel with android, and I get at least 4 youtube videos with tutorial about it. How many videos are for lazarus?Right! They must be much, much more. Nowadays the way of doing things is to put the youtube video on the left monitor and to repeat what was seen on the right one. To read is boring. :(
Castle Game Engine just announced an LSP (http://"https://castle-engine.io/wp/2022/11/19/visual-studio-code-integration-intelligent-code-completion-with-our-lsp-server-also-for-emacs-neovim-and-other-text-editors/") and recommends Pascal Language Basics (http://"https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=AnsonYeung.pascal-language-basics") by Anson Yeung for VSC, last upated Sep 2021.
It's difficult to figure out what is needed to make Pascal a more popular language but, it's unlikely the list would include putting down programmers that use/prefer other languages.
It's difficult to figure out what is needed to make Pascal a more popular language but, it's unlikely the list would include putting down programmers that use/prefer other languages.
I’ve given up on trying to win over people who don’t want to do Pascal. What do we need them for ?? They are irrelevant.People "who don't want to do Pascal" are irrelevant ??... if that were true, the choice of O/Ss and other very useful programs would be rather limited.
I don’t need their approval or validation.That's perfectly fine and, it looks like they don't need yours either (which is a good thing too.)
We should proceed without them and leave them behind."without them" it's quite possible that neither FPC nor Lazarus would have been possible (there is plenty of supporting C code that is directly or indirectly from GNU in the project.) Careful too, who's behind and who's ahead depends on the frame of reference.
I will not disparage people who prefer to use other languagesof course you wouldn't, those people are just "irrelevant". It would be a waste of time to disparage irrelevant people.
however I will not tolerate any abuse from them either.They probably won't either which, after reading a couple of the recent posts in this thread, gives them good reason to look elsewhere if they want to be considered relevant.
I’ve given up on trying to win over people who don’t want to do Pascal.Maybe they, too, have given up on you!!! (Even if they give up, we won't give up on you :)) It's not worth worrying about Pascal so much!
... although I wish an operating system could be written in pascal
I haven’t tried it but in Lazarus if you make a simple console program do all the palettes with the gui controls still show? Even if they cannot be used?
I don’t see any need to get rid of gui parts of Lazarus.
Why not teach it like Visual Basic was taught learning to operate the gui componets at same time as learning pascal?
Learning gui event programming is a valuable skill as well.
I’ve never tried plain fpc. Is it more like turbo pascal was?
Why no also throw quantum computing and neural networks into the mix? :)Well, the latter has been taken care off. Joao has his Ph.D and we have his code! All Freepascal.
I wasn’t referring to people who write operating systems although I wish an operating system could be written in pascalAn operating system can and, has been, written in Pascal as @Winni's link showed.
what they teach instead is a programming language and, there is a _enormous_ difference between the two (this is not new... this has been going on for many decades.) That's one of the reasons there are programmers out there who cannot write a program unless the programming language supports OOP.Well, that is simply not true. In academics you learn programming and not a programming language. This has always been the case at the major institutions. Maybe you got out of luck in choosing your university? E.Dijkstra worked - mostly - with pen and paper, did not need hardware. As Charles Babbage and Ada Lovelace did not need working hardware.
I’m not sure if the decision to teach pascal is even up to teachers. Wouldn’t it be the school administration?
Who knows if they are corrupted by donations. The schools most likely to be interested in free pascal are probably ones with limited budgets. It’s a shame because pascal is better than ever now.
Programming skills definitely go far beyond syntax. I don’t have a high opinion of formal education in general because it’s just teaching for tests. It takes many years of practice to get good at programming. At best schools can help people get started as pascal programmers. Many believe that all important things are taught at school so when pascal classes were discontinued it was a real setback.
Well, that is simply not true.For something that you claim not to be true, I have to mention that I am yet to see an educational institution that teaches a _programming_ class _without_ using a programming language.
That is plain silly, because you forgot about the first: logic. Stupid people create stupid programs. You are esteemed, but don't make me calling you "the Donald" every time.Well, that is simply not true.For something that you claim not to be true, I have to mention that I am yet to see an educational institution that teaches a _programming_ class _without_ using a programming language.
Teaching programming does not need to be done using a programming language and, it is actually detrimental to teach it indirectly through the use of a programming language because the activity of programming does _not_ have the limitations present in most, if not all, languages.
IOW, in academics people learn programming _indirectly_, which is a major problem.
Programming languages are still being designed because some programmers have learned programming _the hard way_ and they realize that the programming languages they've used fall short of carrying out the many tasks that are pure programming.
Since you are into presidents... your post reminded me of what Abraham Lincoln once said "Better to remain silent... "
Have any of you used the pascal os with fpc? or for other things?
Programming languages are still being designed because some programmers have learned programming _the hard way_ and they realize that the programming languages they've used fall short of carrying out the many tasks that are pure programming.Хорошо бы это привести пример. Что именно нельзя сделать на Pascal? Что именно нельзя сделать на ассемблере?
It would be nice to give an example. What exactly can't be done in Pascal? What exactly can not be done in assembler?It's not about what cannot be done but about what _could_ be done which would significantly improve the quality of the code (measured in ease of understanding and maintenance) yet, features that would significantly improve a programming language are _still_ missing 60 to 70 years after the first compiler was written (1951 or 1957 depending on how "formal" you want to get about what a compiler is.)
I read the discussion above and my conclusion is that the most important thing about programming is the algorithms.
Upon finished loading the CSV, mORMot only eats 80MB, heck so little. Sounds a bit magical. But during load test, it fluctuates between 250-350MB, upon which it returns to 80MB at the end.
The Go version eats 925MB upon finished loading the CSV. During load test, it tops at 1.5GB, returning to 925MB afterwards.
I'm trying to contribute here friends. :(It would probably be a good idea for you to tone down your criticism and it might be a good idea to limit it a little more too.
I'm trying to contribute here friends. :(
I'm trying to contribute here friends. :(I’m willing to bet that this person not a pascal programmer at all.. ;D
Did you just vote that you are 100+ years old?
I’m willing to bet that this person not a pascal programmer at all.. ;D
evil dastards deleted everything and banned meHow are you still here? Perhaps a trip to Hyde park is in order...
but the evil dastards deleted everything and banned me for no reason they just dont like mestatements like the above are good reason to ban you. You belittle and insult people (using "*" or misspellings doesn't change that) and refuse to take responsibility for your actions as you just proved in that statement. You just accuse the individual who is trying to encourage some moderation out of you of being "evil dastards".
statements like the above are good reason to ban you.If I were a moderator, I will ban him immediately.
statements like the above are good reason to ban you.If I were a moderator, I will ban him immediately.
statements like the above are good reason to ban you.If I were a moderator, I will ban him immediately.
Maybe it’s possible to ban by IP address range. Professional trolls seem to have a heck of a lot of accounts and IP addresses. It’s a constant process to keep them out kind of like cleaning a house.
Guys can we talk about programming and related things please ?Yes, we certainly can. The question is... can you do that without insulting or belittling someone ? ... that's the question.
Guys can we talk about programming and related things please ?
Guys this time I did nothing again and you did that to me, why friends?You know exactly why. Because of what you've done in the past and show no signs of acknowledging that was wrong which means you're reading to keep doing it.
:(
Guys this time I did nothing again and you did that to me, why friends?
Going by the sidebar stats, seems like steady stream of new user registrations recently. Wonder from where they found this forum.Hopefully they aren’t trolls migrating over from IRC making sock puppet accounts. :-\
One thing I like about this forum is moderators do their best to keep it clean from trolls and spammers.I agree.
I'm not a Pascal lover and I have never commented on this thread. The troll spamming on this thread is not me. Please have a bit respect for me.
Everything I posted is serious.
My account was banned for no reasons,
I was publicly called by marcov to be shamed.
I use random characters as account name to keep anonymity but it's not possible now.
I have no bad intentions or enough energy to troll or spam. I feel exhausted. I'm very lonely and only want to find someone to talk with.
It's Advent Of Code, the developer of the tool I use is busy with the event. My bug reports are not yet resolved. While I'm waiting for him please let me here talking with people a bit. Thanks.
One thing I like about this forum is moderators do their best to keep it clean from trolls and spammers.
I'm not a Pascal loverHe just openly admitted that he doesn’t belong here :(
I’m surprised people can post here as guests..
QuoteI'm not a Pascal loverHe just openly admitted that he doesn’t belong here :(
I’m surprised people can post here as guests..
One thing that a lot of people don’t understand is bans are not really permanent. Professional trolls seem to have a lot of ip addresses and accounts created as backups. It’s continual cleanup work.
Contrary to popular belief, being a moderator is not a fun power trip
1. Be very careful with that attitude. Some may need help with Free Pascal even if it is not there first (or even second or third) choice as language.
We should help them.
2. Also, many here are not Pascal purists, Free Pascal offers what other languages don't for their use cases.
Should they all not be allowed here as well?
Pascal might not even be their primary programming language.
The subject on this forum is specifically Lazarus/FreePascal, there is no requirement for it to be your first language.
... you could say that FPC/Lazarus hasn't always been my primary language. But I don't post an endless stream of new topics about the other subjects.
You also don't have to love it. Actually quite some Delphi/Lazarus usage that I encounter in the wild seems to be people working in automation that use it to augment their PLC work with HMI and other management features.
Small deviations from the strait and narrow are allowed, but as soon as somebody seems to only want to do that, and never actually react to the primary subject, then that is cause for concern.
Indeed. There is some comfort though that the forum is actually alive and used, that provides motivation and keeps it bearable. Nothing is so frustrating as doing it for a nearly dead forum just in the hope that somebody passes by.I couldn’t have said it better. Sometimes the hardest part is to attract and retain good active people.
Should they all not be allowed here as well?I’ve had quite a bit of experience with trolls/griefers both in IRC and 15 years of online gaming. One of the most unpleasant aspects of being a moderator is being sometimes second guessed by people who don’t understand what is happening.
Pascal might not even be their primary programming language.
- Suggesting new features for Lazarus/FPC is okay, but being too pushy is annoying. Especially if they say, because xyz development tool has it so we must have it.I have encountered these types of people and their awful suggestions about what should be done with Lazarus. One of them even suggested making the Lazarus client connect to IRC!!
- Criticism can be good. But criticizing Lazarus/FPC, without doing any contribution themselves but wanting others to improve it, is no good.
We have a right to exist and program in pascal do we not ? It’s time to have some self respect. I could care less how many other Programming languages people know/use, but if they aren’t interested in learning and using pascal why would they go to pascal support places?
It’s best not to lose focus on what we are trying to accomplish. I believe that the forums and irc exist for the purpose of helping people utilize the free pascal compiler which is written in pascal language....
... and intended for pascal programmers.
Because they might be using some program they like that is written in Lazarus or free pascal,This is a nitpick but... a Pascal program is neither written in Delphi nor in Lazarus, it is written in Pascal.
Because they might be using some program they like that is written in Lazarus or free pascal,This is a nitpick but... a Pascal program is neither written in Delphi nor in Lazarus, it is written in Pascal.
That "mixing" becomes a problem because it underexposes the use of Pascal in programming. Borland took this problem to its zenith by calling their Pascal compiler the same as their development environment, both named Delphi. Fortunately, Lazarus and FPC make it clear they are separate and it would probably be a good thing, for both pieces of software, for their users to maintain that distinction.
They might not have the kind of attitudes of free pascal you want. However, they are trying to improve an existing tool they find a lot of value in.
Yeah, I should have said something like "written utilizing Lazarus or free pascal" (or something to the effect...)I'm pleased you understand the point I was making because, it certainly wasn't, and isn't, my intention to pick on you (or anyone else for that matter) but, I believe that confusing/mixing the development environment with the language has been detrimental to the language (Pascal in this case) and, I've seen "written in Lazarus" a bit too often already, for that reason, I thought I 'd mention it after reading your post.
Or yeah "written in Pascal"...
I understand your point.
Because they might be using some program they like that is written in Lazarus or free pascal, and they are trying to work with the maintainers of said program (or some other pascal programmer that could help). They might not have the kind of attitudes of free pascal you want. However, they are trying to improve an existing tool they find a lot of value in.If that is the case they need to find the people who actually created the application before complaining about it.
I removed my reply.I noticed... <chuckle>
The result of the [poll] isn't surprising to me.Possibly due to hindsight bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias). FYI a similar poll has been conducted 9 years ago: What’s the age of Lazarus users? (https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,22457.0/viewresults.html)
[…] I'm more interested in what can we do to gain new users, any suggestions? […]
[…] The important question is WHY did most schools stop teaching pascal ??and how to reverse this trend? […]Money. It’s always money. Well, we can’t dish out cash like Mirco$hit or create jobs requiring Pascal skills, but that’s the main venue to go. Simply “being better than competitors” (e.g. lightning-fast compilation time has been mentioned) is insufficient. Marcov already wrote that:
[…] How to get Pascal back in the curriculum […] Get a gigonormous multi billion company to sponsor and advocate it and make it sexy for at least half a decade Forget about doing it on a dime. […]
I’m not sure if the decision to teach pascal is even up to teachers. Wouldn’t it be the school administration? […]Yes/no. Instructors are (usually) assigned a curriculum that outlines the educational objective. In my state the high school CS curriculum is really just a 20-page document describing following skills: structuring and modelling, forming algorithms and implementing them, cooperation and communication, creative creation and problem solving, data and their structuring, operation on data and algorithms, computer science systems and the models they are based on, opportunities and limitations of informational processes and systems. At no point it mentions any specific programming language.
I am in one of the oldest categories, 67 years old.I could tell by the profile pic. :D
[…] D.O.B. fields in the profile […] I did pull the data that is available […]Thank you. It’s a larger sample size. I prefer to have some visuals though:
Money. It’s always money. Well, we can’t dish out cash like Mirco$hit or create jobs requiring Pascal skills, but that’s the main venue to go. Simply “being better than competitors” (e.g. lightning-fast compilation time has been mentioned) is insufficient.Well money is certainly involved in paying to influence people To do things not in their best interest. Some people in this forum say improving pascal compiler is the most important thing to do. Let’s make amazing software in pascal to show the world how good it is! I certainly have nothing against programming in pascal as it is only thing I use besides a bit of sqlite but there is more to the story than this.
Use Python for…
More
Web Development: Django, Pyramid, Bottle, Tornado, Flask, web2py
GUI Development: tkInter, PyGObject, PyQt, PySide, Kivy, wxPython
Scientific and Numeric: SciPy, Pandas, IPython
Software Development: Buildbot, Trac, Roundup
System Administration: Ansible, Salt, OpenStack, xonsh
I contributed doing this website some time ago:
https://packages.lazarus-ide.org/
I think FPC can compete with any language, but a lot of marketing should be involved, and seems that part is not of much interest.
Well money is certainly involved in paying to influence people To do things not in their best interest. […]I maintain it’s not just “involved” but the key factor. Reality check:
FPC is a community driven project. Just look at the names on the python sponsoring page: https://www.python.org/psf/sponsors/Just looking at who is sponsoring python makes me want to run the other way. I don’t think these big companies are content to just sponsor and control a language they want to get rid of all independent alternatives to what they are sponsoring to gain more control. Both fpc and irc are too independent for their liking.
I maintain it’s not just “involved” but the key factor. Reality check:Linux definitely has less security flaws than windows . I don’t know much about linux but isn’t the “blob” closed source? Sometimes vulnerabilities or malicious code are snuck into linux as well. {I follow #security channel } Also Microsoft has become interested in Linux with intentions that are probably not altruistic..
When’s the last time you heard/read in the news “major security flaw in Linux!”
When’s the last time you heard/read in the news “Detrimental security bug: Update your Windoze systems now!”
I contributed doing this website some time ago:
https://packages.lazarus-ide.org/
I think FPC can compete with any language, but a lot of marketing should be involved, and seems that part is not of much interest.
FPC is a community driven project. Just look at the names on the python sponsoring page: https://www.python.org/psf/sponsors/
Comparing FPC to super large scale projects like Python is pretty pointless.
In addition to what @marcov mentioned...
One of the problems is that educational institutions are very rarely teaching _programming_, what they teach instead is a programming language and, there is an _enormous_ difference between the two (this is not new... this has been going on for many decades.) That's one of the reasons there are programmers out there who cannot write a program unless the programming language supports OOP. Basically, since they have not been taught programming, their mind is trapped in whatever programming language paradigm/straightjacket they were taught.
I'm glad to hear somebody used that approach, IMHO it always should start that way. And after that some Pascal-derived language should follow to teach how to describe the algorithms in a most structured way. And then everything else.In addition to what @marcov mentioned...
One of the problems is that educational institutions are very rarely teaching _programming_, what they teach instead is a programming language and, there is an _enormous_ difference between the two (this is not new... this has been going on for many decades.) That's one of the reasons there are programmers out there who cannot write a program unless the programming language supports OOP. Basically, since they have not been taught programming, their mind is trapped in whatever programming language paradigm/straightjacket they were taught.
Back in 1989 at https://exa.unicen.edu.ar (https://exa.unicen.edu.ar), first year of the Software Engineer degree, for the second class of Programming I, we were asked to bring a deck of common Spanish suited cards. We were given a set of instructions to operate on stacks of cards, test the topmost card for suit and value and create new stacks, do choices and repetitions. We quickly learned to write programs to, for example, shuffle the deck, separate into suits and order each suit by value. Finally, we would then "run" and test the programs, well, by hand, of course !
Daniel
A recent poll on the Lazarus/FPC forum highlighted a fact: pascal coders are older than most coders. Usually, at our age, we should be managers, not developers. But we like coding in pascal. It is still fun after decades!