Lazarus
Programming => General => Topic started by: trev on April 15, 2021, 01:20:02 am
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There have been a number of discussions in the past and currently about Pascal, FPC and the Lazarus IDE often promoting Idea X as a way to increase market share. However, as someone perceptively observed recently, you really need to understand the motivation/reason why the current cohort of users chose FPC +/ Lazarus.
To this end I thought a poll would be a useful way to determine this. I don't want to just throw up a poll that is not fit for purpose or needs frequent revision in light of comments or turns into a discussion of why this option or that option is not available.
So, given the question "Why did YOU choose to use FPC +/ Lazarus IDE" what pre-canned answer options should be provided?
I have a few:
* Former Turbo Pascal user
* Current Turbo Pascal user
* Former Delphi
* Current Delphi user
and of course the famous
* Other [Please specify in a comment below].
Other considerations
* Should users be able to select multiple answers? I was thinking of suggesting the TWO most meaningful (eg a user may have been both a former Turbo Pascal user and a current Delphi user).
* Should users be able to change their answers?
* I was thinking of letting the poll run forever rather than limiting it to a certain number of days.
* Show the result to anyone or only those who have answered it?
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So, given the question "Why did YOU choose to use FPC +/ Lazarus IDE" what pre-canned answer options should be provided?
It might already be covered in the "Former Delphi [user]" option; but I switched due to the (high) cost of current Delphi versions (ignoring the Community Version). Maybe you need a "I am a cheap old fart" option. ;)
* Should users be able to select multiple answers? I was thinking of suggesting the TWO most meaningful (eg a user may have been both a former Turbo Pascal user and a current Delphi user).
* Should users be able to change their answers?
* I was thinking of letting the poll run forever rather than limiting it to a certain number of days.
* Show the result to anyone or only those who have answered it?
IMHO: Yes, No, Agree, Anyone (otherwise people might put in "rubbish" answers, 'cause they only want to see the results). :)
cheers
S.
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* Former Turbo Pascal user
* Current Turbo Pascal user
* Former Delphi
* Current Delphi user
* Exposure at school/university
* Using Pascal at work
* Recommended by a friend.
* Found on google
* tobe index (when/if joined 20 years ago)
* To old, don't remember
* TV Advertisement
* Found this poll, and thought I give it a try.
Sorry, not all points are serious.
People may also have researched/compared language, and found specific features useful.
* type safety
* readability
* no inline vars / But war about it in line.
Or they might find the social part of interest
* friendly forum.
* Show the result to anyone or only those who have answered it?
If people can't see the results, they might submit a random dummy answer....
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So, given the question "Why did YOU choose to use FPC +/ Lazarus IDE" what pre-canned answer options should be provided?
* Former Turbo Pascal user
* Current Turbo Pascal user
* Former Delphi
* Current Delphi user
Er, how about "Its the most suitable tool for the job" - that does not deserve to be lumped into "other" does it ?
* Should users be able to select multiple answers? I was thinking of suggesting the TWO most meaningful
Yes, at least two, possibly ranked answers.
* Should users be able to change their answers?
While it might be occasionally useful, would complicate things ? Perhaps more importantly, would you allow one user to have multiple votes ?
Davo
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So, given the question "Why did YOU choose to use FPC +/ Lazarus IDE" what pre-canned answer options should be provided?
My reasons for choosing FPC and Lazarus don't fall into the pre-canned options you offered.
The two reasons that were key in my choosing FPC and Lazarus are, first, FPC's support of inline assembly in 64bit. I strongly dislike C but I can tolerate it. However, when MS decided that their C/C++ compiler wasn't going to support inline assembly in 64bit, that broke the camel's back.
The second one is directly associated with Lazarus and it is, a capable, usable debugging environment. Lazarus is very likely the best front end to GBD. Source level debugging with Lazarus is really good. Assembly level debugging, that still needs some work but, fortunately, for that, there is cv2pdb which allows debugging FPC executables using Visual Studio's debugger.
After those two key reasons, the fact that I like Pascal and I know the language definitely had some to do with it. The fact that, in 32 bit, it is often possible to have a single source (without a bunch of {$ifdef somecompiler} in there) compile wth both, Delphi 2 and FPC is a very welcome bonus.
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* Former Turbo Pascal user
* Current Turbo Pascal user
* Former Delphi
* Current Delphi user
* User of dynamic typing scripting languages looking for an AOT compile-to-native language
* Former non-Windows user of C or derivative curly braces languages
* Former non-Windows user of Tk looking for cross-platform GUI RAD
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Er, how about "Its the most suitable tool for the job" - that does not deserve to be lumped into "other" does it ?
That goes without saying :)
Seriously, it doesn't capture how the user knew it was the best tool for the job. Maybe I'm asking the wrong question?.
Additional pre-canned answer: Former Kylix user (I was one)
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Additional pre-canned answer: Former Kylix user (I was one)
Now, I have a question... why do the answers have to be pre-canned ?... doesn't that by definition, prevent getting the real reason(s) ?
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There have been .[...]
I think this could be useful for the FPC and Lazarus teams.
Why not add the poll to every user personal information. It could be private or public user choice. The ones willing to participate can choose whatever they want and change it or updating in the future.
And the results could be shown in a link in the main page.
The poll could have any thing you think is important.
As I'm saying it's a big project on its own to do it from scratch but I think that out there might be some tools already made and freely available which could be used.
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make multi choice poll
* Former Turbo Pascal user
* Current Turbo Pascal user
* Former Delphi
* Current Delphi user
* User of dynamic typing scripting languages looking for an AOT compile-to-native language
for me native 64 bit compiler was great deal of selling free pascal
* 64 bit inline assembler
* multi platform support (as former windows user, now full time linux user)
* it is free (i'm cheap af)
* open source / community support
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IMHO there are so many reasons in so many categories that pre-canned answers won't capture the real reasons. Only an open-ended question can do that, so most of us would probably go for your "other" and make of this thread a "normal" one. :D
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IMHO there are so many reasons in so many categories that pre-canned answers won't capture the real reasons. Only an open-ended question can do that, so most of us would probably go for your "other" and make of this thread a "normal" one. :D
It is only 3 category groups
1. my background (target auditory)
* former user of ...
* i can't stand [this] curly bracket language
2. pascal language features
* i do enjoy typing "begin end;" in succession
* strong types
3. free pascal / Lazarus offer
* it is free
* IDE
* specific target/platform support
all thous 3 groups together makes a sell
maybe there should be similar poll for: "what is deal breaker"?
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Why not add the poll to every user personal information. [...]
And the results could be shown in a link in the main page.
I think this is a good idea. :)
cheers
S.
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Seriously, it doesn't capture how the user knew it was the best tool for the job. Maybe I'm asking the wrong question?.
Maybe, I think you are asking about people's background rather than actually why they choose FPC/Lazarus. In some cases their background did determine their choice but I am quite sure that many people made their choice after considering their needs and FPC/Lazarus's capabilities.
* Easy to build cross platform GUI
* Strong typing avoids many mistakes.
* A well balanced mix of low and high level programming.
> Said 440bx :
> Now, I have a question... why do the answers have to be pre-canned ?... doesn't that by definition, prevent getting the real reason(s) ?
First rule of taking surveys, never let responders give an answer that you don't want.
Davo
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First rule of taking surveys, never let responders give an answer that you don't want.
sounds like what trial lawyers say "don't ask the question if you don't know the answer". <chuckle>
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The discussion has been useful (feel free to continue).
What has become clear is that the Forum software Poll feature will not be fit for the anticipated task, although it could work for determining how many users had previously used Pascal which may, of itself, be worthwhile.
I note that Stack Overflow Developer 2020 survey garnered responses from 65K developers from 415 countries - no mention of Pascal as Most loved, Most dreaded or Most Wanted to learn.
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There have been a number of discussions in the past and currently about Pascal, FPC and the Lazarus IDE often promoting Idea X as a way to increase market share. However, as someone perceptively observed recently, you really need to understand the motivation/reason why the current cohort of users chose FPC +/ Lazarus.
IMHO, It has to be done in some practical way, need to go back to basics and ask why someone is using FPC/Laz at first place. What are the most important features that are useful to him now. Otherwise, you will probably have to read a lot of life stories (mine included), given the long existence of the Pascal language and descendants.
IMHO there are so many reasons in so many categories that pre-canned answers won't capture the real reasons. Only an open-ended question can do that, so most of us would probably go for your "other" and make of this thread a "normal" one. :D
Perhaps the answers should start in plain text and once the critical mass is reached, the finished answers should be prepared.
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There have been a number of discussions in the past and currently about Pascal, FPC and the Lazarus IDE often promoting Idea X as a way to increase market share. However, as someone perceptively observed recently, you really need to understand the motivation/reason why the current cohort of users chose FPC +/ Lazarus.
I used Delphi in the past, so it was natural to use Lazarus and FPC. Cross platform with fpcupdeluxe is especially impressive and easy to do. So many platforms supported. Native GUI development is much nicer, easier and faster then QT/C++/Python alternatives. I do look over the fence when I need a missing lib (especially in embedded). And for embedded Pascal/C/C++ Visual Studio Code is fine, too. I am also impressed by TMS web core and their Visual Studio Code integration of web form designer (https://www.tmssoftware.com/site/blog.asp?post=653 or https://www.tmssoftware.com/site/blog.asp?post=778). Lazarus needs a long way to even come close to that for visual web pascal development. For such a use case, this is no brainer and so much better option at the moment.
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My suggestion to Trevs list is: Former VB6 User
For what its worth I had looked at many options before I found FPC/Lazarus. Since I am primarily a Mac user Xcode/C variants were of interest but for my limited use I considered the learning curve too steep.
My choice based on (the last point on discovered after I selected FPC/Lazarus)
- Cross platform
- Free
- Easy migration from VB6
- Very helpful community and forum
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I use Lazarus thanks to Inno Setup. It mentions Pascal in the help file. And I was young and I only knew Lua script. Then I started with Pascal. Then I started a web programming course (full stack) , then university (c, Java) . Now I work with pascal and many other languages.
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2 that I can think of at the moment.
1) Most suitable for the task I want to accomplish
Similar to "Most suitable for the job", but job can give the impression of being used professionally, which might not be the case.
2) Came from other programming language
Maybe "other" would cover this, but this might be more specifically helpful. All converts might not have come from Pascal related variants, but other languages for various reasons. Like was using a scripting language and needed a compiled language, etc...
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Another probably interesting factor is the order of discovery between Pascal and Lazarus.
I would guess, but have no knowledge about it at all, that most people who use FPC/Lazarus had some affinity to Pascal before.
However some may have come to Pascal, either by discovering FPC/Lazarus or via some indirection by discovering another Tool (like Delphi) first.
In either case:
- Did you learn about Pascal first. How? (list of possible reasons)
- Did you learn Pascal because of the Tools/IDE (Lazarus/Delphi/other Pascal specific IDE)?
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Not sure, if we need such poll. I guess, the most popular answers would be "I like idea of RAD development, introduced by Delphi, but Delphi isn't free - it's way too overpriced, has many bugs, limitations and at the end I like whole idea of free and open software".
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* Best cross-platform desktop GUI RAD.
I am a former Turbo Pascal user, so that was a plus, but I had dropped it for some decades. Since then I tried or considered all alternatives I could find (in C++, Java, Python, etc.) before committing to Free Pascal/Lazarus.
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I would guess, but have no knowledge about it at all, that most people who use FPC/Lazarus had some affinity to Pascal before.
[...]
In either case:
- Did you learn about Pascal first. How? (list of possible reasons)
- Did you learn Pascal because of the Tools/IDE (Lazarus/Delphi/other Pascal specific IDE)?
Yes, I think that are good and important questions.
I'm an example of someone who wasn't in touch with Pascal before I came to FreePascal/Lazarus. At the time I wanted to start graphic programming and searched for possibilities. And I like the native style, so Java dropped out. I had hesitation to start with Lazarus, because of its lack of prominence. But I dislike C, so I gave it a try and since never regretted my choice :-)
(And I think there are a lot of people out there allergic to C.)
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C=64+ 6502 assembler (till +/- 91), a short few months QB (the one that came with msdos5), TP4, 5.5, 6 and 7 in the years after that (mostly I ran what the school had a site license for).
Then switched to Topspeed Modula2 and iterated from 1.15 to 3.10. Better and cleaner syntax, but as said less practical, specially quite laborious string handling.
Feeling 16-bit was getting limiting, I tried a few 32-bit dos compilers (Dec M3, djgpp C and GPC) but those *nix derivates felt very rough and unpolished, and so I ended up with FPC, somewhere early 1998 I think. I think I couldn't even get some of them to run to actually follow the tutorials (DJGPP and GPC)
Professionally I use a mix of Delphi (big applications that bring in the bucks) and C++ (mostly wrapping SDK for use in Delphi), a bit of SSE assembler here and there (I'm in image processing, hard to avoid) and plain C (microcontroller dspic33).
For the rest I use Lazarus/FPC, so all personal stuff and most supporting and administrative applications at work.
I've also done Java (school work, and customizing a measurement result aggregation app) and C#/ASP.NET for about the year after VS2005 came out.
I'm not allergic to C, but don't put it on a pedestal like so many people. It is an akward old language with a lot of compromises and legacy.
But it is the attempts at mindless mixing of minor C details into Pascal that I personally find frustrating. It feels like believing that duck-taping a paper trunk to a cow gives it the properties of an elephant instead of a cow that tramples everything because it can't see where it is going.
Frankly it does a disservice to C too, reducing all it properties to some minor syntax rather than its typesystem and general langugage/parsing philosophy.
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C=64+ 6502 assembler (till +/- 91), a short few months QB (the one that came with msdos5), TP4, 5.5, 6 and 7 in the years after that (mostly I ran what the school had a site license for).
I started same or very similar as you did. I am not sure if we had TP4 in school or if I started with TP5.5.
Edit: Only, I just remembered, before QB it was some other BASIC in school (7th or 8th grade) on 8-bit computer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orao_(computer) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orao_(computer))).
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First things first: You can't do statistics if "Other" has a big percentage and free keyboard input is hard to quantize ()
Another probably interesting factor is the order of discovery between Pascal and Lazarus.
I would guess, but have no knowledge about it at all, that most people who use FPC/Lazarus had some affinity to Pascal before.
However some may have come to Pascal, either by discovering FPC/Lazarus or via some indirection by discovering another Tool (like Delphi) first.
In either case:
- Did you learn about Pascal first. How? (list of possible reasons)
- Did you learn Pascal because of the Tools/IDE (Lazarus/Delphi/other Pascal specific IDE)?
It looks you're interested in how and why we got here. Then some back ground (other languages known the level we think we have on it, for how long and how many things we did or do with them) and context info could be added:
- Where did you know about FPC/Laz (web, College, at work, a friend, etc)
- What do you do with FPC and Lazarus hobby, work, learning, teaching
- Platform used to develop and production (percentage of each one)
- Types of app you develop (desktop, command line, daemon/service, Apache modules, Laz components, etc)
- The app category (game, research, graphic editor, CAD, point of sale, backoffice, etc)
- If the app communicates with external devices like sensors, scanners, etc. and protocols used to send/receive signals
- If use HTTP, TCP, UDP, etc.
- DB you use with laz
- Do you use cryptography
- what ever you might think is useful to know what the FPC/Laz community is
and the list can go for ever and ever and I don't think we should figure out all the existing programing languages nor the app category. Someone must already have made one and we can borrow from them.