"I wanna write Windows software like my Dad did in the 90s."
- said no young programmer ever
"I wanna write Windows software like my Dad did in the 90s."
- said no young programmer ever
I wanna wast my time create imitations of popular apps to get new users which will invariably go with the popular default whatever I do, and not choose a minor player in an open market.
- said nobody but Phil.
- said Uncle Grumpus
- said Uncle Grumpus
The exercise of simple putting yourself in their shoes (as in, new users without much attachment to tools) is not geriatric babble.
That said, the consensus seems to be that you need some application or framework from which to grow. I just rather chose the stuff that is already there and not denigrate it as "90s Pop applications"
..a few "showcase" apps might be useful to existing users, not so much for attracting new ones:...The truth is it's good for both...
That's way more powerful than talking...
This is an example of a showcase
https://electron.atom.io/apps/
Remember also that if you design a web application, that easily can be ported to mobile, with any framework using a web view.
https://lainz.github.io/webapps/frecuencias.html -> word counter (Normal web app)
https://lainz.github.io/webapps/compras/ -> groceries list (PWA, so yes, you can use it offline in any android device)
This is an example of a showcaseFunny... I tried the snake game just for fun and the result is: it's working fine, but..
https://electron.atom.io/apps/
And that is actually a Lazarus competitor, since it's main target is the Desktop. I'm not saying Lazarus is just Desktop, but it is manly used for that.
@Phil
I agree your web component will help a lot. Hopefully you can find a way to make it cross platform. Or even better make the chromium work fine and fast in each platform.
I mean a converter of a form isnt hard to do, just map each lazarus control to the html counterpart, or web library counterpart. the glue thats pascal in any form already can be converted to js. The good thing will be to create the entire conversion, like smart mobile studio does, but free :)
3. 60 MB exe is quite big // Free Pascal + API window + OpenGL = probably a few MB only
4. 40 MB RAM is a lot... I guess with FREE PASCAL and OpenGL it should be possible with 15 - 25 MB RAM usage...
I see. Well its just a matter of trying. I'm stuck with releases now, I should get a fresh trunk first. Is really interesting the conversion from a lang to another.
Why not promote apps already written with Pascal ?
The main one I can think of is Skype, written with Delphi Pascal.
Why not promote apps already written with Pascal ?
The main one I can think of is Skype, written with Delphi Pascal.
Not sure what that does for anyone here.
And isn't that a programming urban legend? If not, please post documentation.
I don't know if it's true, but he worked 3 years for Skype according to his LinkedIn profile. https://www.linkedin.com/in/toivoannus
Any electronic musician will tell you that FL Studio (https://www.image-line.com/flstudio/) is an amazing piece of software by any standards. It is written in Delphi (https://support.image-line.com/knowledgebase/base.php?ans=114). I'm sure if we asked nicely, they'd be happy to port it to Lazarus! In my dreams...Slight correction: yes the user interface and a lot more is written in Delphi last time I used it, but it is a VERY complex project and actually,, like many complex projects do, relies on code written in multiple languages.
Slight correction: yes the user interface and a lot more is written in Delphi last time I used it, but it is a VERY complex project and actually,, like many complex projects do, relies on code written in multiple languages.
And these guys are often on this forum... O:-) 8-) ...(Don't tell anyone :-X )
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,And these guys are often on this forum... O:-) 8-) ...(Don't tell anyone :-X )How intriguing! I searched the members' list for "gol" just now, but couldn't find anything...
I know a few more quite specialised science applications.I know too. As well as some quite spectacular engineering applications and some top 500 trading software elements... But these are either too specific or can not be made public.
@Phil: have you seen an ADA gallery somewhere? O:-) :D
sudo apt-get purge wolfram-engine && sudo apt-get install lazarus -y
So what types of apps would probably not be suitable to showcase?Interesting... 8)
- Apps that look and feel like 90s Windows desktop software.
- ...
- Apps that use a non-standard look, feel or practice for a target platform.
So what types of apps would probably not be suitable to showcase?Interesting... 8)
- Apps that look and feel like 90s Windows desktop software.
- ...
- Apps that use a non-standard look, feel or practice for a target platform.
What I would love to see is a more flexible way to set up the UI.
Maybe a more 'CSS-ish' way of designing the user interface.
So let's just say that Photoshop is not suitable. Because it uses a custom UI. Also popular apps like Telegram, Media Players like Kodi.So what types of apps would probably not be suitable to showcase?Interesting... 8)
- Apps that look and feel like 90s Windows desktop software.
- ...
- Apps that use a non-standard look, feel or practice for a target platform.
So let's just say that Photoshop is not suitable. Because it uses a custom UI. Also popular apps like Telegram, Media Players like Kodi.So what types of apps would probably not be suitable to showcase?Interesting... 8)
- Apps that look and feel like 90s Windows desktop software.
- ...
- Apps that use a non-standard look, feel or practice for a target platform.
I think is just that the opposite now. A custom UI is more valuable than a native only.
I think is just that the opposite now. A custom UI is more valuable than a native only.A more customizable and flexible UI was indeed my point.
Not sure where that would fit in the LCL view of the world.Nowhere. It's a different UI design paradigm.
I Googled last week what the simplest programming languages were, and most recommended JavaScript as a first language...
I Googled last week what the simplest programming languages were, and most recommended JavaScript as a first language...
I'm not sure what "simplest" means. I suppose if you're starting with Web design and development, the basics of JavaScript would be sort of a lingua franca, but easiest? And which JavaScript would that be? EcmaScript 5? Or 6 with all the new stuff?
See this article and its caveat about JavaScript:
http://blog.flatironschool.com/should-i-learn-javascript-or-ruby-at-a-coding-bootcamp/
Interesting article. Basically it says you should learn to learn, not just a language (any).
Of course that kind of software sure is harder to do.
I always thought proper UI design was pretty hard to do.
Don't miss the opening joke, it's pretty good.
Hello World :D
When you ask a programmer what to choose for a first programming language, they tend to recommend the one they use most. Because they think that one is easiest to use.
In both cases, that tends to be C++ or JavaScript, depending on the type of application they make. Both of which I certainly would not recommend.
Btw, for the native look and feel: would that include a Windows 8 version as well?
I'll have to say I never get asked that question.I ask interesting questions.
If you're doing Web app development, I don't see how you avoid JS completely. Although it is possible to at least think about doing it with FPC and converting your Pascal to JS. Take a look at this little kit and example:Are you advocating web as a good programming platform, or as a necessary evil? Because it's one of the worst computing platforms ever designed. It's just that managers and salesmen like it, and users don't have to do scary things like installing software. Almost all system administrators hate it when users are allowed to install software themselves as well. But they tend to dislike allowing users to do anything whatsoever.
https://macpgmr.github.io/MacXPlatform/pnj-src.zip
I imagine that the Win32 API is still "a" native look and feel with Windows, regardless of version.I have made very many user interfaces. Most of them designed by interviewing the users-to-be. And just about all of them were different, and custom.
Much of look and feel is just about common sense, using what makes sense in light of the conventions and guidelines of a given platform. Those things don't change very fast.
For example, consider dialog button placement. Microsoft guidelines suggest one way, Apple and Google another. If a program uses the same placement across all platforms, what does that mean? Sloppiness? Laziness? Not good to contemplate what other things the developer might have skipped over.
FWIW: When I am teaching, I use Python as a first language. After that Pascal. After that the curly brackets dialects.
Nothing. ICQ, MSN Messenger and Skype are not popular any more... All of them (old desktop communication software) were replace by Slack, WhatsApp, WeChat, HipChat, Facebook Messenger, Telegram, Google Hangouts, GroupMe, and the like.Why not promote apps already written with Pascal ?
The main one I can think of is Skype, written with Delphi Pascal.
Not sure what that does for anyone here.
And isn't that a programming urban legend? If not, please post documentation.
I don't know if it's true, but he worked 3 years for Skype according to his LinkedIn profile. https://www.linkedin.com/in/toivoannus
So I guess we've established that they were still using Delphi, what, a dozen years ago. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
@Phil
It this what you are talking about?
I'm sure they would like to bundle Free Pascal as well.No they wouldn't. In the early days od RPi I have tried to exploit the fact that most people consider Pascal as a good language to teach programming. Unfortunately they decided to settle with Python, adding Scratch a little later.
I'm sure they would like to bundle Free Pascal as well.No they wouldn't. In the early days od RPi I have tried to exploit the fact that most people consider Pascal as a good language to teach programming. Unfortunately they decided to settle with Python, adding Scratch a little later.
:(
@Phil
It this what you are talking about?
Uh, no, I'm not interested in Skype. Surely the point here would be to showcase FPC and Lazarus apps, not an old Delphi app. I don't see how Skype is relevant in the least except maybe for nostalgic Delphi programmers.
No, my idea is to showcase a small number of _new_ apps. And I think newness and freshness are important.
Look at this page:
https://electron.atom.io/#apps
That's a "visual invitation" to get involved in the Electron project.
Here in Brazil, the strength of Free Pascal and Lazarus relies on making software for commercial and database related applications, but that is a market niche not a general audience.
I'm sure they would like to bundle Free Pascal as well.No they wouldn't. In the early days od RPi I have tried to exploit the fact that most people consider Pascal as a good language to teach programming. Unfortunately they decided to settle with Python, adding Scratch a little later.
:(
I suppose to have FPC bundled with something like the Pi might have been interesting, but was that hope ever very realistic? The precedent for bundling Python was already pretty well set, for example with the One Laptop Per Child initiative, which assumed Python from day one.
I would suggest that for younger programmers, no such reputation applies (teaching language). Pascal is likely to be tabula rasa for them. That's a good thing, though. But the question then is how do you plant the seed of Pascal and what does that seed look like? That's more about communication and branding than about technology and features and pedigree.
We can start making a good showcase website with the already made stuff like lazpaint, text editors that I've seen in the wiki, and tools for programming also
Something like the website I did for OPM
Packages.lazarus-ide.org
So what types of apps would probably not be suitable to showcase?Hmm we are finishing brand new CRM system with all fancy modern web like UI so: one page, no forms (only panels), no standard controls (only TMemo without borders), no standard comoboxes (only TMemo with panels ...) etc.(this was hard part as hell, but it will be best looking CRM in the whole world (including all web CRMs)). It's ok for showcase? :) (and yes we use Lazarus for Win/Mac/Linux and Delphi for Mobile (Android/iOS)). Backend is in PHP :)
- Apps that use a non-standard look, feel or practice for a target platform.
It's ok for showcase? :) (and yes we use Lazarus for Win/Mac/Linux and Delphi for Mobile (Android/iOS)). Backend is in PHP :)
We can start making a good showcase website with the already made stuff like lazpaint, text editors that I've seen in the wiki, and tools for programming also
What I'm thinking of is more app oriented rather than programmer and tool oriented. With apps, you immediately have the chance to do something visually interesting. Contrast these two sites, one of apps, one of modules:
https://electron.atom.io/#apps
https://www.mapbox.com/about/open/
Now, Mapbox's site is quite nice, but the simplicity and visual nature of Electron's site really grabs my eye. I don't know what criteria they used for selecting these particular apps out of the vast list of apps built with Electron, but most have really nice logos. I really like the Insomnia logo.Something like the website I did for OPM
Packages.lazarus-ide.org
Not bad, but a couple suggestions:
(1) Do these packages have icons or logos? You have a lot of room to the right of the package name. Stick the icon/logo in there.
(2) Make the control that looks like a dropdown but isn't into a normal dropdown. Very disconcerting to me to see that kind of non-standard behavior.
1) These don't have.
2) Well is a standar dropdown
You are being unfair. As far as I can see we have everything needed for showcase we just don't have any spinners to spin things around. for example a small show case about scientific modeling easy and fast will bring more interest than a fresh and perky crm/erp and all that yesterdays news. A free, access type, of application with two or three ready made applications for the end user and running on win/mac/linux, are enough. We do not need application we need community, libraries, youtube channels, blocks etc. do your part on your knowledge niche a small easy and fast to use (not execute so much) scientific modeling that you know well start spinning leaving usable cramps all over the place for more scientist to follow and test. some one with hardware experience or not could use raspberry PI for a garden watering management system or a Variable Speed Drive for stepper motors, we already have a CAD written in lazarus a small mill CNC based on raspberry or other type of arm not anything big something small for modeling enthusiasts, open source, free, commercial, maker, mentality all valid as long as they are willing to use a powered by chetah on their block/channel/forum plans etc.Here in Brazil, the strength of Free Pascal and Lazarus relies on making software for commercial and database related applications, but that is a market niche not a general audience.
I feel your pain. I do scientific modeling. Not exactly a conversation starter.
Maybe a key is to find something about that kind of software that _is_ interesting to a larger audience, particularly younger programmers. For example, making anything that's commercial seems very interesting to me.
The behavior you describe is like it works on Android. Like a pop-up. BTW is the native look on Android.
I know many companies that have to offer a better salary and train inside the fresh young programmers just hired to maintain or develop Pascal made software.
I know many companies that have to offer a better salary and train inside the fresh young programmers just hired to maintain or develop Pascal made software.
I've heard that anecdotally, but it's hard to find any evidence for it in surveys:
https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#top-paying-technologies
Valdir.marcos told the truth.I know many companies that have to offer a better salary and train inside the fresh young programmers just hired to maintain or develop Pascal made software.
I've heard that anecdotally, but it's hard to find any evidence for it in surveys:
https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2017#top-paying-technologies
That being said, am I really seeing people in this thread advocate for Electron as a viable GUI-app-development-environment replacement over Lazarus? Yeah, no thanks, ever, for a variety of reasons:
That being said, am I really seeing people in this thread advocate for Electron as a viable GUI-app-development-environment replacement over Lazarus?
It's easiest trainning a accountant to learn pascal and paying more for this than the opposit.
It's easiest trainning a accountant to learn pascal and paying more for this than the opposit.
That's interesting. I wonder if that's more of a local situation. In the U.S., the normal arrangement is a programmer works closely with one or more specialists (so-called "domain experts"). The programmer, as you say, won't know much about the subject.
In fact, I've suggested for years that if a programmer is casting around for good ideas for apps, or wants to start a company but isn't sure what kind of software to specialize in, team up with some boffin who has expertise and ideas but can't program - a good division of labor.
May look good.... but...I tried just one and got this:
At my last three employers! - and basically any bank with a development department in the Netherlands - any medior or senior programmer is alsorequiredencouraged ::) to take banking exams on the subject they are working on.
Presumably your employer pays for the time spent on the certification, courses, etc.If and when you pass the exams you will be fully refunded (and usually also results in a raise or a bonus). Time is your own time (with some leeway, though).
Presumably your employer pays for the time spent on the certification, courses, etc.If and when you pass the exams you will be fully refunded (and usually also results in a raise or a bonus). Time is your own time (with some leeway, though).
Some generic banking exams (still not really basic) are of course fully payed for and within work hours.
Here it is:
https://lazarusccr.github.io/apps/
Here it is:
https://lazarusccr.github.io/apps/
I would say "built with", not "built on". With Electron, it might make sense to say "on", but not with Lazarus.
Can you boost the size of the icon a bit?
I don't see the installers anywhere for LazPaint.
Github layout can be tricky, but actually there's a download in the 'releases' link.
Github layout can be tricky, but actually there's a download in the 'releases' link.
I don't see that. I see a "release" link, but no installers there.
https://github.com/bgrabitmap/lazpaint/releases
The installers are there.
https://github.com/bgrabitmap/lazpaint/releases
The installers are there.
Now I see them. Probably a landing page more like the Greenfish app is a good idea, where the installers are right there.
Also, I can't seem to open the links in a separate browser page.
That requires (a higher level) education.
Showcasing Pascal projects is not what going to people jump in IMHO. Some type of framework or template that makes it easy to start experimenting - that is the ticket. Even a LITE version of Lazarus can help.. let the newbie designer discover what he needs, yet has the tools to create things quickly.
Now... maybe you have all the attributes I am thinking of. If you do, then why is it that a stranger like me did not notice this while strolling casually by?