Lazarus

Miscellaneous => Other => Topic started by: JLWest on February 23, 2020, 11:20:24 pm

Title: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: JLWest on February 23, 2020, 11:20:24 pm
Is it a copyright violation to copy the data from a screen full of data on a website?
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: lainz on February 23, 2020, 11:27:19 pm
If the data is copyrighted yes.

If the data is in the public domain isn't. If the author allows it as well.
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: trev on February 23, 2020, 11:48:26 pm
Is it a copyright violation to copy the data from a screen full of data on a website?

The answer to this depends on local laws and the website.

The best course of action is to ask permission from the website owner to copy the data you want.
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: JLWest on February 24, 2020, 12:11:19 am
Well it seems to me if it is displayed on a website then you can see it. Therefore you could write the info down and then use. So to copy it and use it is almost the same as writing it down and using it.

I'm saying use it, Not sell it.
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: lainz on February 24, 2020, 12:20:13 am
Well it seems to me if it is displayed on a website then you can see it. Therefore you could write the info down and then use. So to copy it and use it is almost the same as writing it down and using it.

I'm saying use it, Not sell it.

Yes it depend for what you're using it. If it's for personal use or commercial use.

For example you can use icons from some icons websites and must add a link back to the site crediting it.

You can use any online encyclopedia but of course you must quote the sources if you publish something.

Copyrighted photos can not be used without author permission.

So it depends always on the content and the license the author puts into it.

So if you want help better tell us the kind of information it is, better with a link to it and we can tell you, if there is some info available on the website... everything else better consider it copyrighted and don't take risks. Ask the author better.
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: JLWest on February 24, 2020, 02:05:51 am
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airports/hea

It the flight data presented for an airport.
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: lainz on February 24, 2020, 04:04:09 am
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airports/hea

It the flight data presented for an airport.

see point 5 license
https://www.flightradar24.com/terms-and-conditions
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: JLWest on February 24, 2020, 05:42:25 am
Wonder how you can  download  but can't copy.

I copy the data, don't change. in any way.
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: trev on February 26, 2020, 08:19:14 am
Quote
Permission is granted to temporarily download one copy of the materials (information or software) from the Services for personal, non-commercial transitory viewing only.

This makes it clear that it covers only the loading the web page with the data in your web browser (hence "transitory viewing only").

If you want to otherwise use the data, then you need to seek permission, unless there is some limited use exception in Swedish copyright law that might apply.
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: MarkMLl on February 26, 2020, 10:18:46 am
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airports/hea

It the flight data presented for an airport.

Some of that data will be in the public domain. Historically as I understand it, the situation for things like street directories was that purely factual information ("The houses on the North side of this street start at 1 and are all odd-numbered, except for the sequence 11, 11a and 15") can't be copyrighted, while the layout and any ancillary information including collation with other sources of information can. For something like flight data I'd expect there to be some sort of public announcement from the airport concerned, which is probably what that website is using as its primary source.

All of this is very much in the public eye because of the Oracle vs Google case over Java API definitions.

The "I'm allowed to see it so I must have the right to make a single temporary copy" is very similar to the "Treat it like a book" license that Borland applied to (early) Turbo Pascal. However reasonable and attractive it might appear I don't know whether it was ever tested in court.

MarkMLl
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: marcov on February 26, 2020, 10:27:31 am
Well it seems to me if it is displayed on a website then you can see it.

You can also see a book in a store, or watch TV, still it is all still copyrighted. Why would this be different?
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: MarkMLl on February 26, 2020, 10:57:09 am
Well it seems to me if it is displayed on a website then you can see it.

You can also see a book in a store, or watch TV, still it is all still copyrighted. Why would this be different?

It's the distinction between who owns the copyright and who has a license to use the material. For example, Disney own the copyright of the material on that DVD you bought last weekend, and they choose to allow that material to be viewed only in certain regions. As another example, Torvalds et al. own the copyright of the Linux kernel and associated modules, but allow it to be used with few restrictions.

Copyright and conditions of use (license) are distinct.

MarkMLl
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: trev on February 26, 2020, 01:52:39 pm
For something like flight data I'd expect there to be some sort of public announcement from the airport concerned, which is probably what that website is using as its primary source.

Not even close! The data is collected from the aircraft transponders using automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) receivers. Flightradar24 has a network of more than 20,000 ADS-B receivers around the world that receive flight information from aircraft with ADS-B transponders and send this information to their servers.

The information is copyrighted. Use of it for other than transitory viewing is forbidden by their licence. The original poster needs to ask their permission unless there is some limited exception in the relevant Swedish law. IAAL.
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: MarkMLl on February 26, 2020, 02:48:55 pm
For something like flight data I'd expect there to be some sort of public announcement from the airport concerned, which is probably what that website is using as its primary source.

Not even close! The data is collected from the aircraft transponders using automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) receivers. Flightradar24 has a network of more than 20,000 ADS-B receivers around the world that receive flight information from aircraft with ADS-B transponders and send this information to their servers.

The information is copyrighted. Use of it for other than transitory viewing is forbidden by their licence. The original poster needs to ask their permission unless there is some limited exception in the relevant Swedish law. IAAL.

I am fully aware of that. But if you go back through the thread you will find

> It the flight data presented for an airport.

...and "flight data" in the context of an airport is usually interpreted as arrivals and departures, as distinct from aircraft movement.

Now, I fully accept that if the information being presented is /entirely/ derived from monitoring the planes' transponders that the website operator has some claim to it. But OP is specifically saying that it is airport data, and I'd expect aircraft arrival and departures to be published accurately by the local controllers: (a) as a matter of public record and (b) to comply with their responsibilities to controllers in adjoining countries (even if that is treated as privileged in the country of origin, a close parallel being UK Met Office observations).

In addition to that, one has to ask whether Flightradar24 really is legally entitled to receive that transponder information, since if they aren't it might be difficult for them to make copyright claims stick. Specifically, in the UK there certainly used to be a paragraph in the wireless regulations (back in the day when one got them from Waterloo Bridge Road) which prohibited receiver owners from using their equipment to monitor non-public transmissions: I believe that one is still supposed to not listen to aircraft bands (unless authorised to use them) and it would be entirely reasonable to extend that to aircraft (etc.) transponders.

Now I'd be the last to challenge Flightradar24, since I believe that they provide a useful service (and a fascinating one, if one is that sort of geek). But in the general case I believe that my point applies: factual information can't be copyrighted, in the same way that statements of fact can't be patented. But details of layout, even something as trivial as the number of decimals or the choice of columns to appear in a table, can. As, obviously, is their choice of adverts and the commercial relationship they have with their advertisers, which is really what their copyright is all about.

MarkMLl
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: JLWest on February 26, 2020, 05:27:56 pm
You are mixing two different things here.

Flight data for aircraft in flight and Schedules. These are two different things and the data comes from two sources.

Aircraft in flight comes from  ADS-B  system while schedules are supplied by each carrier to the airport. ADS-B systems can't predict what AAL or DAL is going to fly and where, Only where the aircraft is currently under certain conditions. If the aircraft has no power ADS-B can't see it.
 
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: MarkMLl on February 26, 2020, 05:50:39 pm
You are mixing two different things here.

Flight data for aircraft in flight and Schedules. These are two different things and the data comes from two sources.

Aircraft in flight comes from  ADS-B  system while schedules are supplied by each carrier to the airport. ADS-B systems can't predict what AAL or DAL is going to fly and where, Only where the aircraft is currently under certain conditions. If the aircraft has no power ADS-B can't see it.
 

"Such-and-such a flight has just taken off", irrespective of the expectations of the schedule, is information which is in the public domain. Now if you'd said at the start "I'm interested in appropriating transponder data collected by Flightradar24" that would have been somewhat different- subject to the legitimacy of their collecting it.

MarkMLl
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: JLWest on February 26, 2020, 07:04:18 pm
I'm interested in flight schedules, not aircraft in-transit.  Almost all airport ports (where commercial carriers operate) post the data on the airport website. However; FlightTrader24 collates the  data and post the aggregate.
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: 440bx on February 26, 2020, 07:09:34 pm
I think MarkMLI is right.

That kind of information cannot be copyrighted, it's inherently public.  That said, the way the information is presented can, and is, subject to copyright.

IOW, don't copy the website (and the copy available to the public) ;)


Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: winni on February 26, 2020, 07:15:42 pm
Hi!

It is a juristic case at the edge.

One the one hand the colleted data is public domain.
On the other hand the act of collecting data is a creative act and because of that protected by copyright. I would be careful.

Or get a domain from North Korea - they don't respect the international copyright laws ......

Winni
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: trev on February 26, 2020, 11:27:29 pm
Forget the niceties of dissecting various people's views on the possible legality or illegality of what is being proposed and simply ask Flightrader24 for permission to use the data in whatever way is intended.

If they say yes, go for it.

If they say no, be warned.

Simples.
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: dbannon on February 26, 2020, 11:50:17 pm
Forget the niceties of dissecting various people's views on the possible legality or illegality of what is being proposed and simply ask Flightrader24 for permission to use the data in whatever way is intended.

Some times its easier to ask for forgiveness then permission. My guess Flightrader24 would automatically respond 'no' even if they don't care and even if they don't think they have a case.

If its marginal and comes down to a definition of transitory and what data is actually theirs, the very worst you could expect, if they bothered to follow up, would be a letter demanding you stop this practice.

(its dangerous to take the advice of "bush lawyers" by the way)

Davo
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: winni on February 27, 2020, 12:10:35 am
Hi!

Sometimes reading helps. In their terms and conditions everything is describeb crystal clear:

Code: Text  [Select][+][-]
  1. 5. License
  2.  
  3. Subject to your compliance with these Terms, we grant you a non-exclusive,
  4. non-transferable right to access and use the Services. Unless otherwise stated
  5. in these Terms, this right is granted for your personal, non-commercial use only.
  6. Permission is granted to temporarily download one copy of the materials (information or software) from the Services for personal, non-commercial transitory viewing only.
  7. This is the grant of a license, not a transfer of title, and under this license you may not:
  8.  
  9.  Modify or copy the materials;
  10.     Use the materials for any commercial purpose, or for any public display (commercial or non-
  11.     commercial);
  12.     Attempt to decompile or reverse engineer any software contained on the Services;
  13.     Remove any copyright or other proprietary notations from the materials; or
  14.     Transfer the materials to another person or "mirror" the materials on any other server.
  15.  
  16. This license and the right to access the Services shall automatically terminate if you
  17. violate any provision of these Terms. Upon the termination of this license, you must
  18. destroy any downloaded materials in your possession whether in electronic or printed format.
  19.  
  20.  
So why does this thread exist?

Winni
Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: JLWest on February 27, 2020, 12:38:30 am
@Winnie

I guess it exist because I posted the question.

I read the Notice and it dose not make sense to me. The info is posted in plain site but you can not copy it. So I can look at the data but can't COPY - that means write it down on a piece of paper or copy to notepad.

A lot of times they say it's copyrighted but in fact it's not, nor can it be. You know that little box you have to check to agree to terms for some downloads or software purchases that you won't give a friend a copy. Waste of time. All of that was dreamed up by Microsoft to slow down pirated software.

But in fact it was not enforceable in court on several levels. No way of knowing who checked the box or when they checked the box or even if the box was actually checked and was not a computer glitz. In addition Congress has not authorized a check in a box in lieu of of a signature.  No have the given Microsoft the authority to write laws.

So Yea, I posted the question, and FlightTrader24 could sue me, but they are only entitled for compensation for what they have lost in revenue. I'm not selling the data. I only use it for my own purposes personally.

In cases like this the awards usually are $1.00.
 

Title: Re: Question about Web info and copyright
Post by: winni on February 27, 2020, 12:43:43 am
As I said: Reading helps:

Code: Text  [Select][+][-]
  1. 15. Governing Law and disputes
  2.  
  3. Any claim relating to the Services shall be governed by the laws of Sweden without regard to its conflict of law provisions.
  4.  
  5. All disputes arising out of or in connection with the present Agreement shall be finally settled by district courts of Sweden.

So happy holidays in Stockholm!

Winni
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