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Author Topic: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers  (Read 8260 times)

marcov

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2024, 09:28:02 am »
@marcov:
Thank you for elaborating on that subject. Very much appreciated.

Just keep in mind:
More and more differences are outside the core system and for specific purposes. Sometimes there are alternatives but the documentation and example status is worse.

Many things are also trunk only (anonymous methods, actually using/integrating the resource compiler, extended RTTI and many newer units), so if you need them now.....

It is better to discuss specific use cases  (do you need activeform?) rather than make grand general statements, since the latter are more likely to be based on outdated assumptions and experiences.

And then this whole thread reduces to "Are you starting a business and possibly plan to buy a Delphi subscription later on?".   The commercial use of Delphi CE is in practice limited to that. Basically it is a trial but promoted with nicer phrases like "community".   

Another point that I missed in this discussion (but I don't know how relevant it is since I haven't used trial Delphis in a while) is that trial versions didn't use to come with RTL and VCL source, which is a handicap if you plan to do some heavier work.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2024, 09:34:35 am by marcov »

marcov

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2024, 09:31:03 am »
Another thing that doesn't seem to have come up. Not all versions of Delphi are released with the community edition or in any case they take many months before they release the new version. For example, Delphi CE 12 (november 2023) does not yet exist.

I hinted at it:

And specially over time. In the past there have been periods they stopped offering it, or did not package some features (non 32-bit Windows targets or , not being able to install components etc.

But yes, it might be said again. Not just that it might not be the newest, but might not be available.

Also they can basically force you to upgrade simply by not allowing to reregister an old version and point you to a new one. (that might be more limited)

Thaddy

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2024, 09:33:11 am »
also note that if you are writing a compiler based on freepascal the license  is GPL2 (and in that case without linker exception) and that is for good reasons way more restrictive as MIT.
Object Pascal programmers should get rid of their "component fetish" especially with the non-visuals.

paule32

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2024, 09:39:39 am »
@Thaddy

The Point with the "creating a Compiler" came from me in an other Topic.

Here, I would point out, and give the OP knowledge, to thinking over on how and why it is better to "Learn" Pascal without Help of a graphical IDE (Integrated Development Environment).
Sometimes it is better to only use a Editor under Command Line Interface (CLI).
Because the learning Peoples (Students) are blended with (nicer) other stuff in/at the GUI Desktop...

I don't except that a Beginner is coding a Compiler...

And I would pointing out the thinking over License ...

marcov

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2024, 10:14:42 am »
Here, I would point out, and give the OP knowledge, to thinking over on how and why it is better to "Learn" Pascal without Help of a graphical IDE (Integrated Development Environment).
Sometimes it is better to only use a Editor under Command Line Interface (CLI).
Because the learning Peoples (Students) are blended with (nicer) other stuff in/at the GUI Desktop...

That was a popular argument, mostly for teachers that teach others (rather than self learning), and IMHO it is outdated by two decades or more, coming from a time when the general student body still had some feel for the cli due to previous dos experience.

If you have to spend precious time teaching them that, you might as well take a bit of distraction here and there for granted and go gui. Further mitigate by  adjusting your course assignments so that they are nicely mathematical and abstract, and provide the necessary forms as part of the assignment starting point. This to avoid that students officially have to engage with the designer at all.

For people that are self learning it is even more pointless, as they are supposed to find their own motivation and not result to artificially restricting the work environment to do it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2024, 12:03:13 pm by marcov »

cdbc

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #80 on: February 26, 2024, 11:28:27 am »
Hi
@paule32: I started programming with Turbo Pascal 3 on floppies and I'm still doing pascal development, more than 35 years I've followed the evolution of the pascal language and the tools for/of it...
I can tell you, hands down, back then I would have shot my granny, just to have the tools to work with that we have today ...and you want people (let alone beginners) to struggle the way we did back then, on purpose?!?
Self taught or schooled, there's absolutely no reason to restrict yourself, in learning this goes: "Learn as fast and well as possible, using the available tools and litterature" to the best of your abilities.
I think you're wrong.
Regards Benny
If it ain't broke, don't fix it ;)
PCLinuxOS(rolling release) 64bit -> KDE5 -> FPC 3.2.2 -> Lazarus 2.2.6 up until Jan 2024 from then on it's: KDE5/QT5 -> FPC 3.3.1 -> Lazarus 3.0

paule32

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #81 on: February 26, 2024, 12:39:46 pm »
why doing I wrong ?

I saw all Episodes from Students around me.
We don't follow the Lesson/Session at all as we came from DOS to Win 3.11 - because it was "nicely" (and better) to play Solitare or Minesweeper as follow the Teacher that thought Windows is the best Thing to Learn the Basics of a DSL.
Nowadays, years later we had the Success - we have to paid after Work Session at School again, to learn, what we have missed before.

And on this POV (Point Of View) I would teach (when I ever have) my Students with CLI like stuff.
Like I have said: The LE (Learning Environment) has nothing to do with the Job or Feelings you get.

For some years ago, I programmed a LE for Windows.
After Windows was bootstrapped, I switch to a own (yes Teacher) Program, that display the Students a Terminal.
All Input was Captured by Hook's (Keyboard Shortcuts, ...).
The Students could create they own Pascal Programs by using the FPC.EXE

And since FPC.EXE was used by Lazarus, it was the the perfect LE I ever programmed.
You, seeing as Admin/Teacher, you can easily create new Groups, and Users and Group-Policies under Windows Pro Settings, quick.
You can limit the Applications that are available for each Users by Security Settings (to avoid, that the Students don't follow the Session)

Only, and only than, when the basics/ground base is lay, it makes more Sense to implement GUI-Components.
Okay, the modern GUI-IDE's allows RAPID Development.
But when Student's don't know, what they have to use a Coding-Logic, than make it no Sense to put a PushButton onto a Form (Window Form) using Mouse movements and clicky clacky...

And not all really use plain/raw IDE stuff.

See: I doing hard coding Web Sites with Notepad++.exe - a TextEditor with Syntax-Highlighting - that is all what I need.
This is not limited on one DSL !

So the modern Developer/Programmer don't use only a single/one DSL.

But to NOT overhelm the (Kid/Students) with Information's that are important to know (OOP),
A EASY to learn DSL is needed to known.

And you would laugh, but BASIC from Commodore 64 or the QBasic from MS-DOS have very high potentials in the modern World of rich Set's of DSL's, too.

marcov

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2024, 02:18:42 pm »
But to NOT overhelm the (Kid/Students) with Information's that are important to know (OOP),
A EASY to learn DSL is needed to known.

But if the CLI knowledge is gone in the current student populace (and remember: the slowest students determine the pace) it becomes such same overwhelming factor as a GUI and OOP.

And as said, you can shield the students a bit from that by giving them the relevant parts as is. It is harder to shield them from the commandline or the weirdness of a dos TUI.

Moreover, you want to encourage more advanced students to play with the course matter (and even beyond), and locking them into what they consider ancient and irrelevant tools only incites revolt.

But lazarus could use some work to make it more suitable for student work (e.g. having read only lazarus and fpc dirs, with only a configuration dir writable. This makes restoring a fubared configuration as simple as providing a short to a batchfile that restores a configuration from the readonly parts, while also still allowing installation of components etc.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2024, 09:49:00 am by marcov »

paule32

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2024, 04:58:19 pm »
And as said, you can shield the students a bit from that by giving them the relevant parts as is. It is harder to shield them from the commandline or the weirdness of a dos TUI.

You would it find funny - but under Windows, you can programming Layers for all Things.
Like you can develop a Driver, that Inspect all Activities under Windows in Context at the File System.
You can rename File Names by using Driver File Mapping (the SAM Directory)

So, you could decide which Application, and which DLL will be loaded, and which not (or using an Alias for all).

This would take some Effort to tackle all out, what DLL's are needed (or you follow the FPC way, to have all in one Executable).
All this is possible (not the Payload of Time included).

TRon

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2024, 05:29:00 pm »
Just keep in mind:
More and more differences are outside the core system and for specific purposes. Sometimes there are alternatives but the documentation and example status is worse.
Again thank you for your take on that.

It really has been a long while when I've used Delphi. And yes from what I remember their documentation was refreshing and exhaustive.

Quote
Many things are also trunk only (anonymous methods, actually using/integrating the resource compiler, extended RTTI and many newer units), so if you need them now.....
True, and for sure I use trunk at least to get myself acquainted with the new features/solutions, though I do try to not use new features in production code so that my code-base does not rely on those new features (purely a traditional safety measure).

Quote
It is better to discuss specific use cases  (do you need activeform?) rather than make grand general statements, since the latter are more likely to be based on outdated assumptions and experiences.
Dearly noted.

Quote
Another point that I missed in this discussion (but I don't know how relevant it is since I haven't used trial Delphis in a while) is that trial versions didn't use to come with RTL and VCL source, which is a handicap if you plan to do some heavier work.
True but if you are that serious.... then doesn't the question "should you even be using the community edition" become more valid ?

marcov

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2024, 07:26:33 pm »
Quote
Another point that I missed in this discussion (but I don't know how relevant it is since I haven't used trial Delphis in a while) is that trial versions didn't use to come with RTL and VCL source, which is a handicap if you plan to do some heavier work.
True but if you are that serious.... then doesn't the question "should you even be using the community edition" become more valid ?

These discussions often evolve into perceived stability for long term time investment. So then it is relevant IMHO.

justmex

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #86 on: February 27, 2024, 04:36:25 am »
Thank you all for your prompt answers! I followed your recommendations and went the open source path with the help of Fpcupdeluxe and so far everything's good on a windows 10 pc, I'll get another ssd to dual boot Linux, and finally I'll try an old intel mac which is behind a few macos versions but I hope it works for cross-platform testing.

One last question so this thread can rest in peace, fpcupdeluxe has many options to install, I selected fpc "fixes-3.2" and lazarus "fixes" which I understand is the stable release with last minute fixes? correct me if I'm wrong.

Excited to have started this new hobby and hopefully scale it to cross-platform commercial projects. I know the trending is currently webapps and AI related services but I still believe the SOHO segment doesn't need all that and the cost that implies those kind of technologies.

TRon

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Re: Delphi Community Edition vs Lazarus for Begginers
« Reply #87 on: February 27, 2024, 06:37:20 am »
One last question so this thread can rest in peace, fpcupdeluxe has many options to install, I selected fpc "fixes-3.2" and lazarus "fixes" which I understand is the stable release with last minute fixes? correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, your understanding is correct  :)

Happy coding !

 

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