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Author Topic: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers  (Read 11093 times)

dseligo

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2024, 12:36:51 pm »
And in French, we have
"temps" meaning "time" and also "weather" :)

B->

It is the same in Croatian: "vrijeme" means time and weather.

Thaddy

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2024, 12:44:15 pm »
And in French, we have
"temps" meaning "time" and also "weather" :)

B->

It is the same in Croatian: "vrijeme" means time and weather.
In French there is a direct relation with the latin tempestas, in Croation I don't know, but it follows a similar pattern.
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440bx

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2024, 01:29:57 pm »
croatian language is spoken as it is written, and it is written as it is spoken
It has that in common with Spanish.

Speaking a language with that characteristic is an incredible asset when learning a new language.  The phonetics can be expressed quite accurately provided the language includes the sounds.  For instance, it is not possible to write the phonetics of the French letter "u" in Spanish because Spanish does not include that sound (English does but expressing phonetics in (American) English is downright ridiculous and quite likely no better in the Queen's English.)

Trying to make an non-native French speaker correctly say "rue" (street) or "huit" (eight) is a test of infinite patience.

In some ways programming is a bit like Mathematics... like most everything in Math, an algorithm is independent of the human language.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 01:31:33 pm by 440bx »
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Curt Carpenter

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2024, 03:50:24 pm »
In some ways programming is a bit like Mathematics... like most everything in Math, an algorithm is independent of the human language.

There is an important difference though between describing an algorithm (or proof), and creating one, and the linguistic relativism/Sapir-Whorf idea is that our natural language shapes and constrains the later, not the former.  It limits the horizon of the questions we can ask.

In the Brazilian Piraha tribe's language, for example, number is expressed as "one,"  "two" or "many."  Within that linguistic constraint, there is not much call to create or discover a concept like "commutativity."

It's only a theory though, with arguments on both sides.   

440bx

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2024, 03:54:51 pm »
talking about commutativity...

The way we think affects our language and our language affects the way we think.

That's a problem... (TTBOMK, currently without solution.)
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alpine

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2024, 04:27:57 pm »
In the Brazilian Piraha tribe's language, for example, number is expressed as "one,"  "two" or "many."  Within that linguistic constraint, there is not much call to create or discover a concept like "commutativity."
The term was not coined until the 19th century, probably the French and English languages had developed enough for the mathematicians of the time to invent it?
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Thaddy

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2024, 04:41:56 pm »
To summarize and given the number of  the non-native speakers in the contributions, the only thing we can do is to advise Americans to learn proper English  ;)
Programming is second or third or fourth or umptiest language anyway. This discussion is proof.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 04:46:12 pm by Thaddy »
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Zvoni

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2024, 04:46:20 pm »
To summarize and given the number of  the non-native speakers in the contributions, the only thing we can do to advise Americans to learn proper English  ;)
Programming is second language anyway. This discussion is proof.
Eh?
Just reminded me of a Situation i got into last year:
Was walking past some people, and the "speaker" asked "How many languages do you speak?"
Most answered "one" or "two"

In passing i answered "five"

Everyone looked to me
Me: "German, Croatian, English, Basic, Pascal"
OK, i admit, the last two ones resulted in some queer looks......
One System to rule them all, One Code to find them,
One IDE to bring them all, and to the Framework bind them,
in the Land of Redmond, where the Windows lie
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Code is like a joke: If you have to explain it, it's bad

Martin_fr

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2024, 05:19:05 pm »
Just reminded me of a Situation i got into last year:
Was walking past some people, and the "speaker" asked "How many languages do you speak?"

Define what counts as "speaking a language"?

I mean, how many word, terms, expressions to you need to know, or whatever other measurement?

Just to be clear, even in my native tongue there are words that I do not know, so I only know a certain percentage of this language, yet I am inclined to say that I speak it.

Then again, there is a number of languages of which I know two or three words. I have an inkling that this would not entitle me to say that I speak those?

LV

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2024, 05:23:10 pm »
Maybe we should all switch to Esperanto 8-)

Thaddy

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2024, 05:24:56 pm »
I would define it as "as comfortable or almost just as comfortable to use it" as if it is your native language. That holds for programming languages too.
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Zvoni

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2024, 05:25:06 pm »
Just reminded me of a Situation i got into last year:
Was walking past some people, and the "speaker" asked "How many languages do you speak?"

Define what counts as "speaking a language"?

I mean, how many word, terms, expressions to you need to know, or whatever other measurement?

Just to be clear, even in my native tongue there are words that I do not know, so I only know a certain percentage of this language, yet I am inclined to say that I speak it.

Then again, there is a number of languages of which I know two or three words. I have an inkling that this would not entitle me to say that I speak those?
Let’s call it „fluent“ with maybe one or two words in a hundred „missing“
One System to rule them all, One Code to find them,
One IDE to bring them all, and to the Framework bind them,
in the Land of Redmond, where the Windows lie
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Code is like a joke: If you have to explain it, it's bad

Thaddy

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2024, 05:47:26 pm »
I would tie "fluent" to culture too.
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Martin_fr

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2024, 05:47:33 pm »
Just reminded me of a Situation i got into last year:
Was walking past some people, and the "speaker" asked "How many languages do you speak?"

Define what counts as "speaking a language"?

I mean, how many word, terms, expressions to you need to know, or whatever other measurement?

Just to be clear, even in my native tongue there are words that I do not know, so I only know a certain percentage of this language, yet I am inclined to say that I speak it.

Then again, there is a number of languages of which I know two or three words. I have an inkling that this would not entitle me to say that I speak those?
Let’s call it „fluent“ with maybe one or two words in a hundred „missing“
And the opposite? All (but 2 or 3) missing?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 05:54:51 pm by Martin_fr »

TRon

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Re: "Non-English speaking" or "English as a second language" programmers
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2024, 05:51:21 pm »
A bit of over-quoting because the thread runs so fast, sorry for that.
The good thing is that code tends to explain itself so whenever not feeling comfortable with the explanations it is still possible to get the gist of what was discussed. Whenever code does not explain itself there usually is something wrong with the code/solution/implementation.
Quote by Cory House: Code is like Humor: If you have to explain it, it's bad
https://www.defprogramming.com/quotes-by/cory-house/
Yes, I noticed your tagline before you explicitly mentioned it here and I agree that it is a good tag-line. The moment you need to explain things about code then there basically is something wrong with it (and yes that also applies to jokes  :) )

 

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