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Author Topic: Are We Dead Yet?  (Read 19437 times)

ASBzone

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2023, 03:43:01 pm »
It looks like the percentage of programmers actually using Pascal is small, much smaller than the percentage of programmers using RAD environments that use the Pascal language (Lazarus/Delphi)

I believe your conclusion is accurate, but I'm not sure I see a real concern there for the practical implications to FPC.

If Lazarus didn't exist, and the only viable Pascal-based RAD was Delphi, then I could see concern that with only a commercial option -- and one with a very convoluted history in the last decade or more -- that the whole language was in potential jeopardy.

But, with Lazarus and FPC being so closely connected, and with Lazarus being OSS and actually well supported, the one thing keeping the community from dying out is, in fact, already strong and viable for this community.    This RAD trend is not specific to Pascal -- it seems to be pervasive for all development languages today.

Unlike others who post on this topic from time to time, I don't see that Pascal (in the short term) needs a major influx of new users to survive, or that the way to get them is to make many things in Pascal like many things elsewhere.    (And I'm not suggesting that you are advocating for this either, @440bx).   People who are drawn to Pascal are drawn to it for specific reasons, and simply making it like everything else undermines that value, 9 times out of 10.

There's a balance between adopting new features that make sense and embracing everything in other popular languages to supposedly keep/attract interest.  I like the balance that has been made thus far, and that should not be interpreted as "there is nothing that I would change, given the chance or sufficient resources".   I'm largely content, and have an appreciation for what it means and takes to make substantive changes to a platform and/or ecosystem.
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runewalsh

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2023, 04:03:06 am »
You could have easily named the thread ”I’m concerned about the low number of commits for fpc lately”

I said that in the post body, and went ahead and explained why do I care by the title :D

Is there a particular reason why your thread was given a trollish title Joking about project being dead and a suggestion for the use of c++?

This is my way to make things more fun, just like yours is a witch hunt. The title references Rust meme “Are we X yet” (and its page on the Mozilla wiki contains “are we dead yet?” verbatim), and you might have guessed what my another title “Final Solution to the OffsetOf Question” references. Speaking of C++, my original wording was “the only alternative to Pascal I recognize is C++” and was meant as a compliment, but would even that have stopped you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ccrause

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2023, 03:38:58 pm »
==8<---
I also find it hard to understand why anyone would fanatically monitor how
often commits are made ... to what end? besides gathering ammunition for starting threads on a forum to taunt people who don’t want pascal to be dead?

Some alternative "sinister" :o motives for tracking activity (such as commits) on a project one is interested in:
  • Check what new features are implemented
  • Check what new optimizations are implemented
  • Check if a known bug gets fixed
  • Check if a bug fix in the development branch is merged with the fixes branch (implies it will be available in the next official release)

JanRoza

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2023, 03:40:37 pm »
Joanna, please stop this witch (troll) hunt!
This forum has very good moderators who are more than capable, leave it to them.
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Bi0T1N

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2023, 06:25:50 pm »
==8<---
I also find it hard to understand why anyone would fanatically monitor how
often commits are made ... to what end? besides gathering ammunition for starting threads on a forum to taunt people who don’t want pascal to be dead?

Some alternative "sinister" :o motives for tracking activity (such as commits) on a project one is interested in:
  • Check what new features are implemented
  • Check what new optimizations are implemented
  • Check if a known bug gets fixed
  • Check if a bug fix in the development branch is merged with the fixes branch (implies it will be available in the next official release)
You missed a point:
  • Check changes to see if everything is fine or if you've a concern about the change (code review)
And less commits could also mean that devs are working on something big which takes all their time. So maybe there will be some major changes/refactoring, who knows?
However, a big disadvantage is that there wasn't a new stable release of FPC since August 2021. The preparation of version 3.2.4 is still not finished and that's probably what most people use, stable releases.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2023, 06:31:20 pm by Bi0T1N »

Kays

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2023, 08:57:16 pm »
[…] I doubt many will get as far as drawing up statistics on the bugtracker. Usually fitness for purpose is the best metric, and some familiarity (e.g. coming from Delphi) […] I usually also look at the example program situation […].
To each his own. There are varying criteria. I’m afraid a CTO will have a hard time to justify his decision to opt for Pascal, though, specifically FPC in light of the sheer numbers. It’s a miracle some institutions are adopting Linux, yet it’s at least actively backed by tech companies.

[…] An example that supports that concern is GNU Pascal.  It was/is a good compiler.  It is dead and likely because it didn't/doesn't have a RAD for it. […]
Is GPC dead? GPC is based on GCC. Development stalled because of the amount of necessary changes to keep up with GCC became too large, essentially requiring a general overhaul. Quo vadis, GPC?

[…] A very lively forum is not necessarily indicative of the health of an ecosystem, as anyone who has ever witnessed the support forums of a product in its death throes can well attest. […]
Well said.
Yours Sincerely
Kai Burghardt

440bx

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2023, 09:57:40 pm »
Development stalled because of the amount of necessary changes to keep up with GCC became too large, essentially requiring a general overhaul. Quo vadis, GPC?
That was certainly one of the reasons but, far from the only one.  The Quo vadis, GPC message thread cites a fair number of problems related to GPC.

As of today (2023), it's probably fair to say there are only two (2) implementations of Pascal that are truly alive and both are intimately linked to RAD environments (which is probably what keeps them alive.)

I know there are other Pascal implementations out there (PascalABC and others I don't remember at this time) but, they really are very minor players (not surprising since even Delphi and FPC cannot be considered major players.)

Pascal isn't dead - at least not yet - but ...

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VTwin

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2023, 12:31:33 am »
The simple cross platform RAD + impressive compile and blazing binary speeds are hard to beat. I don't see another platform in the same league, and I have looked.

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440bx

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2023, 12:34:08 am »
The simple cross platform RAD + impressive compile and blazing binary speeds are hard to beat. I don't see another platform in the same league.
I agree with that.

Given the fact you stated then, why is it that Lazarus/Delphi/Pascal aren't more popular ?
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lainz

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2023, 01:56:48 am »
The simple cross platform RAD + impressive compile and blazing binary speeds are hard to beat. I don't see another platform in the same league.
I agree with that.

Given the fact you stated then, why is it that Lazarus/Delphi/Pascal aren't more popular ?

Desktop is not the main target nowadays?

VTwin

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2023, 02:08:56 am »
Desktop is not the main target nowadays?

Could be. Maybe I am old and out of touch, but apps that I use to get work done are all desktop. Spreadsheet, word processing, vector graphics, bitmap graphics. Then stuff like MATLAB, Octave, R. I do email on my phone if I have to.
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VTwin

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2023, 02:16:41 am »
Given the fact you stated then, why is it that Lazarus/Delphi/Pascal aren't more popular ?

I have no idea. It is an interesting question. I tried to like many others, but they came up short. Especially C++, Python, Java. Building and distributing cross-platform apps was just too much work.

In my experience, folks are dismissive of Pascal. It seems reflexive.

A friend of mine, who is an editor of a major international science journal, basically snorted when I said I worked in Pascal.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2023, 02:23:01 am by VTwin »
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lainz

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2023, 02:55:53 am »
Desktop is not the main target nowadays?

Could be. Maybe I am old and out of touch, but apps that I use to get work done are all desktop. Spreadsheet, word processing, vector graphics, bitmap graphics. Then stuff like MATLAB, Octave, R. I do email on my phone if I have to.

I mean for work is still the main thing...

For graphic design there's a growing number of the use of tablets or touchscreens

For notes I use Google keep to write poetry and stories.

For web browsing I use my phone except when I'm working

For email I use my phone

For buying delivery I use my phone (delivery app)

For WhatsApp I use both desktop and phone

Programming still is on the PC at least for now
« Last Edit: May 14, 2023, 02:59:01 am by lainz »

lainz

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2023, 03:04:41 am »
For spreadsheet and word the thing is moving towards web with Google and Microsoft...

For graphic design as well there are vector apps from Adobe and Corel that works on the browser

440bx

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Re: Are We Dead Yet?
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2023, 03:53:19 am »
Given the fact you stated then, why is it that Lazarus/Delphi/Pascal aren't more popular ?

I have no idea. It is an interesting question. I tried to like many others, but they came up short. Especially C++, Python, Java. Building and distributing cross-platform apps was just too much work.

In my experience, folks are dismissive of Pascal. It seems reflexive.

A friend of mine, who is an editor of a major international science journal, basically snorted when I said I worked in Pascal.
I'm sure I'm not the only one here who knows exactly what you're saying.

My "theory" (IOW, speculation) is that when it comes to low level control, Pascal falls short and C/C++ programmers will expediently point that out.  The other side of that coin is that Pascal gives more control than the typical interpreter (Python, Java, Ruby, etc) and that control requires more work on the part of the programmer (Pascal programmers don't have their Mom collect the garbage for them...)

Effectively, Pascal is close to C/C++ but falls short and requires way too much work and understanding for the typical Python, Java, Ruby, etc "programmer". 

Those who want hard core go to C/C++, those who want cushy go to Python or some other interpreted language.  Interestingly, the C++ libraries do make a reasonable attempt at managing some resources on the programmer's behalf (which I personally very strongly dislike and never use.)


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