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Author Topic: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)  (Read 16576 times)

El Salvador

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2023, 04:53:12 pm »
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IMHO the debugger is the only FPC/Lazarus project, the rest are 3rd party addons.
So how come the Fresnel repo is in the Lazarus group of gitlab?  :-[

marcov

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2023, 04:58:51 pm »
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IMHO the debugger is the only FPC/Lazarus project, the rest are 3rd party addons.
So how come the Fresnel repo is in the Lazarus group of gitlab?  :-[

Same reason that pas2js is in FPC? :-) Overlap of developers.

I do want to stress that the comment on Fresnel was just a first impression(a bit of a qtquick copycat, probably for pas2js benefit). If you want to react to that assessment and point out what is wrong, I'd be happy to learn.

af0815

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2023, 05:05:03 pm »
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So how come the Fresnel repo is in the Lazarus group of gitlab?  :-[
This is a question for
"Mattias Gaertner authored 3 months ago"
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 05:09:17 pm by af0815 »
regards
Andreas

Joanna

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2023, 12:11:40 am »
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I know and agree. But I don't have much hope as the whole pas2js has also been pushed under the FPC umbrella, despite being only sideways related.
Most of these seem to be selected in the hope of attracting anonymous masses rather than improve life for the people actually using the project's fruits.
That’s not a good thing when this happens, I’ve seen it before and the results weren’t good.

AI seems to be the latest hype. AI is definitely not a panacea. I do like the idea of being able to control the colors of all controls... but on the other hand Lazarus IDE is already quite complicated adding too many more features to it could become counterproductive.
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VisualLab

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2023, 01:25:45 am »
This road map looks like a bunch of loose ideas (except for one point).

Re. 1. Adding the ability to change colors and shapes for all widgets is OK. Although it's not a matter of life and death. However, the idea of using CSS for this purpose is pure fantasy and utopia (and additionally: idiocy). CSS is bloated and causes huge memory and CPU overhead. Adapting existing code to support CSS (Gtk, Qt, WinAPI, Cocoa) is a lot of work. Also, CSS was developed for HTML formatting, not for styling controls in operating systems. It is the complete opposite of what developers of windowed applications need. You can try to develop something similar to styles in Delphi. But that will also take a lot of work. There is still the question of how to handle CSS in Lazarus. Because CSS are human-edited text files, they may contain errors. There is known such a commercial (and very expensive) HTML and CSS editor. It's Dreamweaver. Does he always do well with CSS code? The last time I used it was about 12 years ago. And as I remember, there were problems with it (not that I consider this program to be bad, it's just that it's quite a complicated issue). Unless these files will not be modified by a human, but by a graphical editor. But that still requires Lazarus expansion and a lot of work (time, people).

Unless the originator of this roadmap has in mind creating a brand new portable library. This is complete fantasy and delusion. Just look at how much work it took to create such libraries as FireMonkey or JavaFX (I won't mention Qt, because it's years of work for a battalion of programmers). Yes, a cross-platform library for Lazarus and FPC would be useful. But this topic has been discussed many times before. And creating something new that uses HTML, CSS and JavaScript is a dead end. That's why there are still people who choose Lazarus, because it allows you to build windowed applications without trendy shit like Electron and node.js. Trabants in the GDR were also popular, but the quality was worse (but at least they were simple to build unlike WebKit).

Re. 2. As above (in 1).

Re. 3. Web-Assembly is desirable.

Re. 4. Hmm…

Re. 5. Lack of details as to the intentions of the originator of the road map.

Re. 6. That would indeed be useful. But... it will take at least a few years to achieve the capabilities of open source engines (OGRE, Torque3D, Irrlicht), provided that the project is developed regularly by at least 4-5 people. So it's work for years.

Re. 7. This is the most important point. And that should be in the first place.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 01:29:01 am by VisualLab »

Bogen85

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2023, 01:37:20 am »
AI seems to be the latest hype. AI is definitely not a panacea.

What is being referred to in the "roadmap" might not to be in regard to the recent ChatGPT and related use of AI.

Quote
4. Create a tool for coupling any AI or Neural network to demonstrate step by step the Algorithm behind the AI and test it line by line.

That likely (I could be wrong) has little or nothing to do with the "buzz" around AI for the past few months. (well, longer, last few years, but much more so in the past few months)

Using programming languages to work with AI neural networks predates Pascal as a programming language, it is not the latest "hype"...

While many (even on this forum) may use and benefit AI related tools, I don't think any on this forum have called them a panacea. They are tools like any other tool, and can be effective if one knows how to (and wants to) use them.

I agree it (the recent "buzz") is not a panacea, but I would caution those who want to downplay it as "hype" or the "latest fad" that will soon be over and replaced with something non AI related. Certainly many aspects of it are hyped. While very powerful, it is also extremely flawed.

If you are saying that not every Pascal user will benefit from
Quote
4. Create a tool for coupling any AI or Neural network to demonstrate step by step the Algorithm behind the AI and test it line by line.
then I completely agree.
It would only help those doing that kind of AI work, which is not necessarily related to the latest "buzz" you are seem to be referring to. (But I could be wrong about what the author of #4 means)

But this is a discussion of what is in this Foundation's roadmap for Free Pascal and Lazarus.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 05:29:44 am by Bogen85 »

nanobit

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2023, 08:32:46 am »
Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus was posted

Adding more incomplete features will just consume more resources at the expense of quality/trust. But the same could also be said for FPC, so this is nothing new...

af0815

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2023, 08:53:20 am »
On the official roadmap of the foundation, you can read
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Complete Gtk3 Widgetset
Year: 2020
Status: Planned
Tags: Lazarus,Widgetset
Complete the GTK 3 widgetset.

Mattias Gaertner looked into what still needs to be done, but no actual development has been done
now we have 2023 and it is looking the foundation activities are blocked by other 'roadmaps' and 3rd party stuff.
This is not a problem, but should tranfered in the correct contex. The looking to 'normal' developer of this situation is not the best.

Or is fresnel is the new gtk3 ?
regards
Andreas

ccrause

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2023, 09:55:27 am »
Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus was posted

Adding more incomplete features will just consume more resources at the expense of quality/trust. But the same could also be said for FPC, so this is nothing new...
This is the implicit contract we should accept when using/contributing to these projects (FPC/Lazarus): A project is developed/maintained by volunteers.  The core team consist of volunteers who donate their efforts to the wider community in exchange for personal reward.  In most cases this reward is simply implementing something that is of personal interest.

Nobody will volunteer for a task if there is no reward - for example fixing GTK3 support: if the knowledgeable developers are not actually interested in this platform, why should they invest their time & effort?  Note that there are bounty systems (e.g. the bounties page on wiki or the FPC / Lazarus Foundation) where a user can offer a reward (typically money, but could be anything really, such as new hardware) to try and convince others to invest effort in implementing a fix or feature.


af0815

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2023, 10:53:48 am »
Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus was posted

Adding more incomplete features will just consume more resources at the expense of quality/trust. But the same could also be said for FPC, so this is nothing new...
This is the implicit contract we should accept when using/contributing to these projects (FPC/Lazarus): A project is developed/maintained by volunteers.  The core team consist of volunteers who donate their efforts to the wider community in exchange for personal reward.  In most cases this reward is simply implementing something that is of personal interest.
This ok and accepted and not in discussion.

But why decide the "core team" to make a "Freepascal and Lazarus foundation" and you can see the roadmap not there first. And for gtk3 why nobody of the foundation write -> no maintainer <- . It is ok, you read the information in a paper, but it should presented first in a official place, or is the Blaise Pascal Magazine the official speaker for Lazarus and Freepascal ? Maybe i have overseen this.

For me is the point -> who speaks for the official roadmap.
regards
Andreas

El Salvador

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2023, 11:00:55 am »
Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus was posted

Adding more incomplete features will just consume more resources at the expense of quality/trust. But the same could also be said for FPC, so this is nothing new...
This is the implicit contract we should accept when using/contributing to these projects (FPC/Lazarus): A project is developed/maintained by volunteers.  The core team consist of volunteers who donate their efforts to the wider community in exchange for personal reward.  In most cases this reward is simply implementing something that is of personal interest.

Nobody will volunteer for a task if there is no reward - for example fixing GTK3 support: if the knowledgeable developers are not actually interested in this platform, why should they invest their time & effort?  Note that there are bounty systems (e.g. the bounties page on wiki or the FPC / Lazarus Foundation) where a user can offer a reward (typically money, but could be anything really, such as new hardware) to try and convince others to invest effort in implementing a fix or feature.
In fact, it seems the direction is to bring the FPC world to javascript. A sort of quartex pascal (https://quartexdeveloper.com/) closer to the pascal world than to the js world?

marcov

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2023, 12:29:36 pm »
This road map looks like a bunch of loose ideas (except for one point).

The debugger point, yes. The second and pdf builder point are not really detailed but since the second point has "webform" support in the details I'm not hopeful.

The PDF builder point is even strange with "4. PDF BUILDER DEVELOPING creating readable text excerpts for quick search in a large PDF’s" as description.

Your message pretty much echoes my feeling in more detail. Directionless copycatting to get fancy headings, but probably spreading yourself to thin, and the results limited.  Web rendering models are fundamentally different.

You know what they say about promising unicorns, in the end it turns out to be an old toothless nag with a carrot glued to its forehead.

p.s. I have zero use for web technologies at the moment as I mostly work embedded not in business software. But if I had (and my previous job was) I already had chosen a platform over a decade ago.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 12:40:01 pm by marcov »

Joanna

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2023, 01:01:46 pm »
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That's why there are still people who choose Lazarus, because it allows you to build windowed applications without trendy shit like Electron and node.js.

I couldn’t have said it better. I want nothing to do with anything that resembles web programming.

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balazsszekely

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2023, 02:37:46 pm »
No need to panic.   :)
1-3 will be done via packages, in fact you can already install package Fresnel and Pas2JS in main. Think about it as a new LCL independent widgetset, which can coexists with the LCL framework, it's just another option not a replacement. I'm not so sure though about the roadmap timeline, in my opinion it will take more time.
4 This is important, AI will play a big role in the future. Even in his infancy, ChatGPT is a scary thing.
5-6 Interesting
7 Hand down the most important one

Also a stable Docked/Anchored IDE, with native support for dark theme(s) would be a good thing. Younger developers run away just by looking at the IDE.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 02:59:24 pm by GetMem »

Bogen85

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Re: Roadmap for FPC and Lazarus (2023)
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2023, 02:54:14 pm »
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That's why there are still people who choose Lazarus, because it allows you to build windowed applications without trendy shit like Electron and node.js.

I couldn’t have said it better. I want nothing to do with anything that resembles web programming.

Many developers may fit into your category.

However, are you going to discourage developers who might be working on some electronic appliance that has no display, and the only graphical interface is a web page, from using Lazarus and Free Pascal?

By saying, "oh, your use cases do not fit mine! go away!"
Don't worry, I'm exaggerating, I know you would never say that!  :D

True, said developers that do things that don't fit your use cases may not be the majority of developers that use FPC and Lazarus, but they do exist and should not be shunned.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 03:01:13 pm by Bogen85 »

 

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