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Author Topic: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?  (Read 2214 times)

Handoko

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2022, 03:55:48 pm »
I can add ZCAD, I think it has outgrown a small project and become an average one

I recently tested ZCAD. It really has some features that can be found in AutoCAD but not in LibreCAD. With more development and marketing efforts, ZCAD can replace LibreCAD as AutoCAD alternative someday.

Other great software built using Lazarus/FPC are:

PicPas
I haven't used it, I don't have the hardware. But it seems well-polished.

CudaText Editor
I don't use it because I am happy with Lazarus IDE. But the feature list shows CudaText Editor is a very powerful editor.

Hedgewars
A turn-based strategy, artillery, action and comedy game, which is listed in Ubuntu software repository.

Lazarus Android Module Wizard
I saw it is used in developing commercial apps.

Castle Game Engine
It is certainly not a small project.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2022, 03:58:39 pm by Handoko »

marcov

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2022, 04:09:59 pm »
That depends on the eye of the beholder I'd say

That goes for this whole thread. One could argue most of those C++ projects are simply by default because some big company with roots in 1980's Unix (and that includes Microsoft) stuck to what it knew.

Has somebody mentioned Skype yet? The original version was in Delphi, before they sold out.

In the nineties Pascal was also strong in the BBS scene.

madel

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2022, 02:57:53 am »
A simple google search will show all the "big-name" projects that were written in Pascal in the PAST. We all know how dominant Borland Delphi was in the market in its day. I'm not trying to discuss the past though. I'm trying to discuss, learn, and possibly, as a community, generate useful ideas to make this community bigger.

I fully agree with the points Martin present:
 
Quote from: Martin_fr
So how to spread the word? => Write articles for computer magazines (online and offline)
Approach the publishers, and see what they would publish (if you wrote it).
Or find someone skilled in writing such articles.

Now if I go back to one point I tried to make earlier, who else would have the knowledge required to do such things other than the experienced users or even contributors to the projects?

For example, a youtube search for "delphi tutorial" shows some "high quality" and fairly recent videos with good views count.
If we do the same for "lazarus tutorial", it isn't nearly the same, where the top results are some 10 years old or so.
Same goes for "object pascal tutorial".

One annoying thing you will inevitably see when searching for "delphi/pascal/object pascal" is the "it's dying" videos/articles with lots of views/engagements. I think a direct consequence for this also inevitably affects Lazarus due to its "attachment" to Delphi. Can this be fixed or changed? If so how?

This reminds me of the one time I was contacted by a company to work on a desktop application and they already had written some C# code for it. I discussed it with the manager and convinced him that writing it with Lazarus/FPC is the best option for their project. He had never heard of Lazarus but had an idea about Delphi and his first words were "It's a dead language". We spent a few hours going on about this and I made direct comparisons with C# and he felt more positive about it and gave green light. It was a "big" medical project. "big" in terms of scope and investment.

What I concluded from that experience is that seem to follow the "loud voice" even if they have no idea about what's being said.

I try to spread the word about Lazarus/FPC around my circle but I see that more must be done and thus I've now decided that I will try to do more like writing articles, making videos, tutorials etc. Although I haven't done anything like this but I will do what I can.

What I dislike about discussing Pascal is that people will always find a way to talk about its better past. Reminds me of those people who are proud of their countries because of what it had achieved thousands of years ago. Yes that's great and all but we are in the present and we should focus on that.

AmatCoder

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2022, 11:57:32 am »
Quote
Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?

I am sorry to say this, but from my experience: Because the larger the project the more inconveniences/bugs you will find using Lazarus.

Example from CudaText:
https://github.com/Alexey-T/CudaText/issues?q=is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Lazarus%2FFPC+issue%22+is%3Aopen

13 of 36 open issues are Lazarus/FPC issues.
In my experience, I have far fewer problems with the Qt framework, for example.

And this is what is expected. We just can not compare a framework with dozens of full-time paid developers against one with a few volunteers.

So the problem is not the marketing. In my opinion, just there are better alternatives for big projects.

Warfley

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2022, 12:17:57 pm »
The niche of Lazarus is in my opinion quick development of cross platform gui applications. This is because Lazarus is, like Delphi a RAD environment, designed to quickly get your applications "of the ground" so to say.

If i want to have a simple calculator that computes how many hours I've worked overtime in one week, in the time it takes to spin up a QT or java FX project, i'm almost already done with Lazarus.
But this overhead advantage is only static, the larger the project gets the less different does the hour of setup time or so is with the other frameworks. And when you end up at enterprise scale, no one even remembers how the project started

But the larger the scale of the project, the more apparent so the limitations get. For example lazarus this are not as easiely configurable as java FX, in Java FX you can just load a new design as CSS and it can alter the complete look of your application, in lazarus and the lcl you can change a lot of things but by far not to the degree, and not so easiely (and centrally) is in Java fx with just one css sheet

I think that the gui niche, while deserving its prevalence due to its ease to get into, is actually not where lazarus shines most. I think Pascal is amazing for writing simple I/O processing programs like console applications or servers. It has great memory and data handling without the cumbersome and complicated constructs of c++, while not being so far abstracted that it becomes nearly useless for low.level memory management like python or C#

wp

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2022, 12:27:43 pm »
Example from CudaText:
https://github.com/Alexey-T/CudaText/issues?q=is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Lazarus%2FFPC+issue%22+is%3Aopen

13 of 36 open issues are Lazarus/FPC issues.
I disagree. This is the typical statement of a programmer saying "This bug cannot be in my program, therefore it must be in Lazarus/FPC" (sorry, Alexey, I don't mean you personally...), there are numerous examples in this forum. But when I try to reproduce the described issue in a simplified project, removed out of the context of the large application, everything is fine. I am absolutely sure that the majority of such bugs attributed to Lazarus/FPC are prepared somewhere else in the application.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2022, 12:32:08 pm by wp »

jamie

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2022, 03:40:07 pm »
Quote
Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?

I am sorry to say this, but from my experience: Because the larger the project the more inconveniences/bugs you will find using Lazarus.

Example from CudaText:
https://github.com/Alexey-T/CudaText/issues?q=is%3Aissue+label%3A%22Lazarus%2FFPC+issue%22+is%3Aopen

13 of 36 open issues are Lazarus/FPC issues.
In my experience, I have far fewer problems with the Qt framework, for example.

And this is what is expected. We just can not compare a framework with dozens of full-time paid developers against one with a few volunteers.

So the problem is not the marketing. In my opinion, just there are better alternatives for big projects.

 You can see it as you wish but the end product is as good as the person's skill using the tools.

 I have Delphi and it has bugs too, lots of them but the problem there is you aren't free to correct them but only report them and hope they, the DEV's come up with a solution and offer you a patch or wait until they release the next version where you pay for it.
 
 A lot of products are like that and it will cost you even if you are the one that offered up a solution.

 if you are expecting a product to magically give you what you want without issues then good luck to that.

 Lazarus which is only the IDE isn't really the issue here, it's code base which much of it is from multiple sources and lots of third party stuff.

 and getting to third party code, just because it shows a problem with Lazarus does not mean its Laz's fault, usually it's the third party code causing the issues.


 I've used lots of tools over the years, they all have problems so don't think it's narrowed down to Laz.
The only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing

avra

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2022, 06:17:55 pm »
Quote
Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
Creating "big" tools is mostly done with teams in some company. It is hard to find and gather quality pascal developers at one place, and even if you overcome that business risk it is hard to replace a member who left. If you choose java/c++/python/js and similar, risk is lower.
ct2laz - Conversion between Lazarus and CodeTyphon
bithelpers - Bit manipulation for standard types
pasettimino - Siemens S7 PLC lib

dje

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2022, 02:40:35 am »
False Narratives

The investment structure is designed in such a way were the people with the money know nothing, so they are sold development ideologies which are false.

EDIT: What I mean by that is, there are a lot of failed IT projects which have nothing to do with the tools used. As the saying goes, "A poor craftsman blames his tools". So, new tools are designed to address the "failures" in old tools. It doesn't stop projects from failing, it only tricks more people to invest. And the cycle goes on forever.

For me, I regret all the time I spent exploring/learning fancy new tools. I should have stuck with Delphi 1. Lazarus is an amazing gift to the world.

EDIT: As far as project sizes go. You would be hard pressed to find a Pascal project bigger than FreePascal/Lazarus.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2022, 02:51:46 am by derek.john.evans »

SymbolicFrank

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2022, 12:24:58 pm »
Pascal isn't hip. As a young programmer, you want something that immediately shows nice stuff in a browser.

jamie

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2022, 01:03:10 pm »
Lol script kiddies !

Real men use an abacus !
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lainz

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2022, 03:05:22 pm »
Quote
Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?

There's the big project LazPaint, cross platform image editor.


cpalx

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Re: Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2022, 04:24:08 pm »
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