Why's Lazarus IDE only mostly used to create small tools/utilities?

[madel]

Hi all,

Not here to bash but I'd like to start a friendly discussion:

I notice that the majority of the projects created with lazarus/fpc are just small to medium GUI tools/utilities. I understand that Lazarus makes it very easy and fairly straightforward to create such things, I use it for that myself.

But I feel like such case makes Lazarus' reputation to be known that it is used "just" for that by those who didn't use or barely knows about it. To make my point clearly and for the sake of giving an example:

C can do anything yet it's mostly popular for systems programming (OSes, drivers, compilers etc.)
Same for C++ but it's famous for creating 3D game engines etc.

And so on...

IMO, lazarus/fpc doesn't have a "niche" which can be a good thing but also I think it's holding it back to be more widely known/used.

So my idea for this discussion is this: Would the lazarus/fpc community collaborate to create some "important/big/etc." that draws more attention to lazarus/fpc?


PS:

1. I understand that the Delphi/Pascal is mostly centered around RAD tools for GUIs.
2. I understand that Lazarus and FPC compiler themselves are written in Pascal which demonstrates its capabilities.
3. I'm not asking anyone to work on something, if anything, I should follow my own idea and start something myself first, but that isn't my intention (to ask the community to make something), my intention is learning about others' opinions regarding this point.

[AlexTP]

PeaZip
Total Commander
Double Commander
CudaText (my)
- are big projects.

[dseligo]

I notice that the majority of the projects created with lazarus/fpc are just small to medium GUI tools/utilities. I understand that Lazarus makes it very easy and fairly straightforward to create such things, I use it for that myself.

You probably mean open source project, on Github and similar?
Apart from AlexTP's examples, I am sure that there are plenty of large projects which are not made public. I have project with more than 120 forms, and I consider it to be large.

But don't let this to discourage you to start big project: I am sure that you'll get help from community, either by active participation in project or by help and advice here in the forums.

[madel]

PeaZip
Total Commander
Double Commander
CudaText (my)
- are big projects.

I do know these fine projects, actually, I use CudaText myself and I thank you for your nice creation

You probably mean open source project, on Github and similar?
Apart from AlexTP's examples, I am sure that there are plenty of large projects which are not made public. I have project with more than 120 forms, and I consider it to be large.

But don't let this to discourage you to start big project: I am sure that you'll get help from community, either by active participation in project or by help and advice here in the forums.

Yes, I mean a "big" open source project. And I have been thinking of an idea for such a project myself... I just want lazarus/fpc community to grow in popularity and be more recognised/appreciated for what it offers.

[Martin_fr]

Do you refer to the observation that some of the recent announcements have been "smaller" (yet neither less valuable, nor limited in future growth) projects?
Not all projects are announced, and of those announced not all are announced here on the forum. That is the authors decision.

There are lots of bigger projects (like the Lazarus IDE itself). And huge frameworks (gaming, database, reports, ...).

And if you compare to C-like languages, well there are many, many small c-like based apps too. If you want to compare, IMHO the only meaningful numbers would be the ratio. Because with C-like, even with the smallest "big to small app" ratio, the overall flood of apps would mean there are still tons of bigger apps.

Also comparing number of announcements is problematic too.
Unlike C-like, with tons of forums, where each announcement only reaches a fraction of the c-like followers, for FPC there is a single forum. A central place for such announcements. This distribution has a bigger effect on the visibility of smaller projects. And a lesser effect for bigger projects. Bigger projects have their own pages and advertisement. (I don't need a forum to find "open/libre office").
So it is very well possible that our infrastructure (i.e. that because the community itself is smaller, there are less distributed places) helps the visibility of smaller apps. Note, that this does not mean big apps are less visible. Just the ratio in visibility changes.

The solution is simple: Go and spread the word.


https://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Projects_using_Free_Pascal
Remember that list is only a fraction of what is out there....

[Martin_fr]

Yes, I mean a "big" open source project. And I have been thinking of an idea for such a project myself... I just want lazarus/fpc community to grow in popularity and be more recognised/appreciated for what it offers.

So, the opener was misleading... How to increase popularity?

There once was lots of talk about a cad project. Not sure what became of it. But that would be big.
There are several people working on games, those have potential for popularity. (But not sure if they seek co-developers).

Before starting a new one (unless you know that there is demand for whatever you plan), search github/gitlab for what is already going on.

It's not just having a big project (in terms of popularity, big is not even a requirement).
- It must be something for which there is demand
- Word must be spread. Outside the Pascal world.

[marcov]

Yes, I mean a "big" open source project. And I have been thinking of an idea for such a project myself... I just want lazarus/fpc community to grow in popularity and be more recognised/appreciated for what it offers.

FPC/Lazarus is considered a "big" project ? :-)

[Martin_fr]

GitHup projects in Pascal with an "lpr" file and a size > 500kb
https://github.com/search?q=extension%3A.lpr+language%3APascal+size%3A%3E500&type=Repositories&ref=advsearch&l=&l=

[madel]

@Martin_fr

You raise good points.

> Do you refer to the observation that some of the recent announcements have been "smaller"....
Not just that. Again and to be clear, I have nothing against "small" projects in Lazarus, I've written a few myself
But also if we look on github, clearly some big and passionate projects are made and are well known in pascal community but no so much outside. I wonder what is the issue? That's what I initially meant.

> And if you compare to C-like languages....

I initially did not intend to compare languages when I gave the C/C++ examples, but, what I personally observe from the popularity of some languages/frameworks is usually by what others achieved with said language/framework. I don't think this applies everywhere but it still does in my eyes. For example, if I wanted to create my own game engine, with no prior knowledge of how it's done, making it in something other than C/C++ seems a rather waste of effort and time, because the "overuse" of C/C++ in that field allowed vast knowledge to be easily and readily available. To add to my point with this, could/would the Pascal community pay more attention to a specific niche that one day it could be the "C/C++" in that specific niche?

> So, the opener was misleading... How to increase popularity?
I kinda got lost on my own words, I had two ideas and wanted to make them into one or something lol.

> - It must be something for which there is demand
- Word must be spread. Outside the Pascal world.

You have said my two points for me, so I thank you for that. This is exactly what I meant to say.

[madel]

Yes, I mean a "big" open source project. And I have been thinking of an idea for such a project myself... I just want lazarus/fpc community to grow in popularity and be more recognised/appreciated for what it offers.

FPC/Lazarus is considered a "big" project ? :-)

That depends on the eye of the beholder I'd say, thus the quotation marks. How do you see it?

[zamtmn]

Pascal community is not big, so there are few projects

I can add ZCAD, I think it has outgrown a small project and become an average one

[Martin_fr]

> - It must be something for which there is demand
- Word must be spread. Outside the Pascal world.

So "big" isn't "project size" (man-hours, lines, age, ...), but popularity. And more to the point popularity not constraint to the Pascal community.

Again, hard to define, where does popularity start?
- "open/libre office"? Known to users, even outside the tech- and developer-world...  (But they care little, what language it was made with)
- "apache" / "mysql"? Limited to developers...
...

But probably still doesn't matter.

So how to spread the word? => Write articles for computer magazines (online and offline)
Approach the publishers, and see what they would publish (if you wrote it).
Or find someone skilled in writing such articles.

Cover topics such as Freepascal and Lazarus. But also more generic, like why Pascal can still be a good choice. How Pascal today differs from the 1980ies. Even cover the differences in dialects. How type-safety can help writing better code..... There is tons of potential....

Once you have content, spread it on social media. Create video channels, with regular content, widen the circle by comparing to other languages, and giving pro and con. So you reach developers that currently use those other languages...

[Handoko]

As a general purpose development tool, Lazarus can build almost or maybe all kinds of software you ever know, if you have the knowledge and skills. Web development, no problem. But if you're a web developer, you probably will choose those tools specially designed for web. Mobile device apps, Lazarus can build too. If you just started a new company for developing commercial mobile apps, will you choose Lazarus? That will be a risky decision for your company.

Lazarus can build PC games, we know it for sure. Someone ever asked me, why I didn't just use xyz tool instead of Lazarus. I use Lazarus because I like solving problem, I know Pascal and I like playing games. My goal is not developing games but doing research. But what they said is absolute truth. If I use Unity, Unreal Engine, Game Maker, Cocos, etc, I now should already have built plenty of games.

So Lazarus as a general purpose development tool, has a double-edged sword effect.

Also software popularity is very dependent on the big company who is sponsoring/maintaining it. Pascal gained huge popularity in the Borland era. Unfortunately Borland lost the battle to Microsoft. Recently, Google introduces new programming languages/tools. Good or not, like it or not, there always huge numbers of users want to try it. Because the big company is recommending it.

Because of there isn't any big company is sponsoring Pascal currently. Actually, yes it is. Embarcadero, unfortunately it is dying and having bad reputation - too pricey. Lazarus/FPC/Pascal is not widely used. Big software project requires huge efforts and money. If it is a open source project, big project needs big company sponsoring it. If it is a commercial project ...  well ... many commercial companies are more interested in using other development tools.

[Martin_fr]

And Youtube is filling up with videos on the Carbon language.

There are Pascal videos too. But the aren't much popular. Get all your friend to watch them. (And probably watch a few other languages too, so the Youtube algorithm is taking you serious). And make sure it's not just now, for one or two weeks. Make sure it keeps going. And then start liking and commenting on selected videos.

If a thousands of people all over the Globe would start watching the Pascal content, then maybe they will be suggested to more and more people.

[Martin_fr]

<sarcasm on>
And, well apparently, a sure way might be to start a conspiracy: "Why they don't want you do know about the genius advantages of Pascal"
<sarcasm off>
SCNR