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Author Topic: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!  (Read 18902 times)

Blade

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2020, 12:40:12 pm »

I hope you are right but, the current trend doesn't lead there.

Pascal's mindshare isn't growing and, quite a few Pascal programmers are life long programmers who are _not_ being replaced by a new generation.

There are new Object Pascal programmers, but think they are likely fractured into using different products, groups, and possibly also using a mix of other programming languages.  Examples:

PascalABC is a thing (and for many years) in Russia, but would such users be on Delphi websites or here on the Free Pascal/Lazarus's site?  Would such users also be using .NET Pascal with other .NET languages or would their applications be confused as being created with C#?

Would people using Delphi's Community Edition and using maybe the Delphi Basics website even know about PascalABC or be using Lazarus?

Maybe a person is using Simba (automation tool using Pascal scripting language- https://villavu.com/forum/forum.php), would they be looking at Delphi or Lazarus, despite writing Pascal scripts?

How many people that bought and use Oxygene from RemObjects, would be on Delphi websites or this forum?

Various countries like South Africa use Delphi and teach Object Pascal in their schools, so where are these graduates going and what are they doing later?

My impression is that the Object Pascal community is split into numerous smaller groups and bubbles.  So unless it's understood how to account for this, its extremely hard to get an accurate picture.

Thaddy

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2020, 01:32:15 pm »
My impression is that the Object Pascal community is split into numerous smaller groups and bubbles.  So unless it's understood how to account for this, its extremely hard to get an accurate picture.
Same goes for any language with multiple dialects like C and C++..... So that is true but bogus at the same time. E.g. FreePascal is closer to Delphi than Msvc is to C++builder or Intel C++
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Blade

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2020, 03:38:59 pm »
Same goes for any language with multiple dialects like C and C++..... So that is true but bogus at the same time. E.g. FreePascal is closer to Delphi than Msvc is to C++builder or Intel C++

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending TIOBE's bias or bad business practices.  I'm just saying that it might be easy to get things wrong, if the person studying about the popularity of Object Pascal is clueless about the community or programming in general.  This is echoed by the insanity of some that say Pascal is dead (though some supporters of other languages might do this on purpose), and there knowledge on the subject seems to stop at Turbo Pascal or having taken a class on it 40 years ago.  "Turbo Pascal gone, so no more Pascal."  People that are being extremely lazy, to not find out that Pascal evolved into Object Pascal, that Delphi is very much in business and continually selling, know of Free Pascal, etc...

And I agree, it's crazy how multiple dialects/compilers/IDEs of C++ are seen as part of the same language, but Object Pascal dialects are often seen as entirely different programming languages that have no connection to each whatsoever.

lainz

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2020, 05:39:09 am »
I can't understand why c is so popular. I don't like it.  :P

Blade

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2020, 06:51:22 pm »
An argument as to why TIOBE and their index is not an honest actor, is the software data quality tools that they are selling.  TIOBE's top languages on their index corresponds strongly to their software code quality assessment service and tools.  In this regard, TIOBE's index doesn't look objective at all, especially if it's also part of their marketing and what they are trying to sell.

It's like a company giving the public an index of the top selling cars, while not clearly disclosing their business interest in selling services and products for the cars at the top of their own list.  A very strong conflict of interest.  Little wonder that Object Pascal and Delphi would be purposely getting the short end of the stick.

marcov

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2020, 07:25:03 pm »
I think it is more disinterest than malice.

If there is premeditation, it is just to keep the amount of work needed under control.

Still that means the index, even despite already a flawed base principle, isn't as good as it could be.

ASBzone

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2020, 11:03:50 pm »
An argument as to why TIOBE and their index is not an honest actor, is the software data quality tools that they are selling.  TIOBE's top languages on their index corresponds strongly to their software code quality assessment service and tools.  In this regard, TIOBE's index doesn't look objective at all, especially if it's also part of their marketing and what they are trying to sell.

It's like a company giving the public an index of the top selling cars, while not clearly disclosing their business interest in selling services and products for the cars at the top of their own list.  A very strong conflict of interest.  Little wonder that Object Pascal and Delphi would be purposely getting the short end of the stick.

It's also possible that they have tailored their services around what their data shows them is the "top development languages,"  and that their methodology is just poor.

Either way, it does eventually bring them to a conflict of interest position...
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RTOlivier

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2022, 10:41:13 pm »
Me too I have sent a mail to Tiobe on this and I had same response. But the thing is, now Delphi, DWScript, Object Pascal appear in their top 20. Currently 12th place. I'm sure, It'll be at top 10. But yes, they have to consider FreePascal. They said taht if we put FreePascal/Lazarus as a programing language. They can include them.

dbannon

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2022, 05:00:01 am »
Maybe they are counting FPC in with Delphi ?  It does not appear anywhere else so if its not already counted, then its extra 'points' would make very little difference.  Its a flawed measure and we should not concern ourselves with it.

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GetMem

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2022, 07:52:31 am »
As of April 2022, Delphi is in12th place. People told me 22 years ago that object pascal is dead. It seems very much alive and kicking, not to mention Freepascal and Lazarus. :)
Two small issues though:
  -  it is relatively hard to find a job nowadays
  -  when you mention Pascal to other programmers, you got that stare, as if you just pass through a membrane from another reality
« Last Edit: April 18, 2022, 08:26:17 am by GetMem »

PierceNg

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2022, 08:30:58 am »
  -  when you mention Pascal to other programmers, you got that stare, as if you just pass through a membrane from another reality

Once, somebody misheard me. I mentioned I program in Pascal. He replied, "Haskell, cool!"   :P

Leledumbo

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2022, 11:51:05 am »
Once, somebody misheard me. I mentioned I program in Pascal. He replied, "Haskell, cool!"   :P
Surprise that person by telling where Haskell stands against Pascal in TIOBE :P

Warfley

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2022, 03:17:17 pm »
The thing with Haskell is, it is one of these mystic languages many people hear alot about and how great they are, but no one really got around learning them because they are so different and so maths heavy (there is this joke in the functional programming community that when you get asked what a Monad is, a fundamental concept in Haskell, you answer with: A Monad is just a Monoid in the category of Endofunctors)

So if I would meet a Haskell developer, I would also want to strike up a conversation with them, because Haskell is really cool, and as I never really got around using it for any real project, I would find a conversation with someone who uses it really interesting.
I think the fact that Haskell is such a niche language is actually the thing that makes it interesting

But over all, I think the TIOBE index is not really useful, I think much better are actual surveys. For example StackOverflow does one every year (2021: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021) where they ask much more interesting questions, like how much people want to learn a language in the future, how much people who actually use the language, like the language (e.g. only 15% of cobol users actually like using cobol, while for rust on the other end 87% of users love it)

 

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