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Author Topic: Trying to contribute to the Wiki, Translations needed, and if yes, how to do?  (Read 4624 times)

Nimral

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Hi all,

I have just managed (in my opinion, and in regard to Object Pascal) to cross the border between "absolute beginner" and "still rather mediocre programmer".

I got great support from both the Englisch and the German community and I am willing to spend some time to pay back to the community. I consider myself fit to go through part of the beginner documentations where I found them not helpful, and try to enhance them so the ones hopefully coming after me have lower barriers to entry. The community has been absolutely great, some members have patiently answered even the most basic questions, but I do not want to stress their patience too much.

I started to make some changes to basic pages like, for instance, https://wiki.freepascal.org/Networking, because I felt that the information given was, in many aspects, inadequate to guide beginners to success with as little efforts as possible, so they stay on board and feel motivated to dig further.

I am natively a German speaker,  but have, from the very beginning of my career, always preferred English documentations, for many [I still think] good reasons, but I know others may have different preferences.

Recently, triggered by an ongoing discussion in the German forum, I have had a closer look at what automatic translators (Google Translate) deliver, and boy, the have, in my opinion, evolved substantially from where they were a couple years ago (most infamous example: MSDN, I'd say ...), at least when it comes to English->German.

I did also check the automatic translation of "my" section of the page above to German and found it acceptable, if not "perfect". I then checked other [entry level] pages and tutorials as well, and found them almost perfect as well, with the errors that were occasionally there in no way misleading into a completely wrong directiopn [as it has regularly been years ago].

Now there is already a German page, many years ago someone started a translation, but quit pretty soon, so the current German page is almost useless. Sure, I could update it, at least the part I have contributed, but having seen what Google Translate delivers, I feel this is a waste of precious time.

I'd like to remove the German page altogether, and/or replace it with a hint to use Google Translate [or any other Translator anyone likes].

What do you think?

Armin

« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 12:32:39 pm by Nimral »
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trev

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There was a discussion about Wiki translations about half-way through this thread.

Unfortunately I don't think it reached a conclusion on how to proceed regarding translations, but you may want to have a read of it anyway.

The main problem with many (most?) translated pages is that they're never updated after being translated the first time. There's also quite a few which never finish getting translated. I think the problem there is lack of translators, translator burn out and lack of feedback/recognition.
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Nimral

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I found and read it. The almost same discussion happened in the German forum too, and came to no end as well. There are some people who definitely know how it *should" be done, the translation aid for the [updated] wiki engine looks very promising, for instance.

My prediction is that we will *never* find enough translators [neither payed nor for free], because, in my opinion, a translator must not only be an excellent speaker of the source and target language, but also have a very good understanding of the technical background, in other words, he needs to be a fairly good FPC/Lazarus programmer. With the Pascal community dwindling, I don't see a chance to accomplish this. And furthermore, after a page has eventually cought up with the English page the translator would have to constantly monitor the English page to add changes to his translation? Or someone overlooking the English pages would have to take a look at all the translations and then find someone who is willing to re-synchronize it with the English page? I don't see a chance for this to happen.

So I'd concentrate on making the English pages better, I have seen so many which are, IMHO, in a desatstrous state, so to me the talk about translating them seems to come second to the issue of making the originals better *first*.

If there is, like in my example, a German page, which is over 10 years old, obviously abandoned, and does not contain any useful bit of information, but is simply existing so *something* exists, I think deleting it altogether is an enhancement.

Would you advocate and support this?

Armin.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 03:59:17 pm by Nimral »
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Nimral

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Btw, just for fun, I put my previous post through Google Translate. I suggest, if anyone reading this is speaking German, please do the same.

The vast majority of the text has been translated *perfectly*. There are three, onle three, passages where the translation comes out a bit strange, probably because I did use uncommon English expressions to express myself (remember: I am natively a German speaker). I did intentionally not try to change the English text until it translates better, but I bet, with a fraction of the efforts it takes to maintain a German page, I would have succeeded.

Not making any use of this powerful tool simply doesn't make sense to me.

Armin.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 03:58:39 pm by Nimral »
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trev

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Quote
If there is, like in my example, a German page, which is over 10 years old, obviously abandoned, and does not contain any useful bit of information, but is simply existing so *something* exists, I think deleting it altogether is an enhancement.

There's another discussion more or less on this point that has been resurrected currently. See this thread.

Quote
Would you advocate and support this?

It depends on whether the page is of any use at all, for example, historical (ie it applied to an earlier version, was once valid, etc). Release Notes for earlier FPC/Lazarus versions are a concrete example. The discussion I just mentioned is canvassing this issue at the moment.
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af0815

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For me one and only goal is - WITHOUT a tool for controling the changes AND the state of other languages in relation - any diskussion is meaningless.

my2cents

BTW: This dicussion is IMHO more than 10 Years old and popup from time to time (And it looks nobody search in the old diskussions on the mailinglist and the forums).
regards
Andreas

Kays

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For me one and only goal is - WITHOUT a tool for controling the changes AND the state of other languages in relation - any diskussion is meaningless. […] This dicussion is IMHO more than 10 Years old and popup from time to time (And it looks nobody search in the old diskussions on the mailinglist and the forums).
Well, to quote some old post:
More tiredness of the same old discussions. It is always the tools, and always the public write access, and never anything else.  And always if you change it "they will come", IOW heaps of good quality content will fall from thin air, while no sane person could have done without

All experiments in the past however point to the exact opposite, and pointing that out is deemed old-fashioned and negative.  Moreover, the division line is usually between actual contributors and wannabe contributors.
Tools should simplify things: A dishwasher is nice to have, but if you can’t wash the dishes by hand, you’re just pathetic.
Yours Sincerely
Kai Burghardt

Thaddy

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Tools should simplify things: A dishwasher is nice to have, but if you can’t wash the dishes by hand, you’re just pathetic.
A dishwasher is plain superfluous as long as your wife insists that you need to rinse everything - essentially cleaning up by hand -  before it goes in the dishwasher......
The solution is to clean the filter after each run. (And yes, she turned 54 yesterday and still adheres to such folly)

Plz don't mention dishwashers.... :-X :-[ especially in the aftermath of a birthday party. O:-)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 10:37:48 am by Thaddy »
Путин преступник. Россияне дезинформированы.

Nimral

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I can't resist.

My wife does also put everything into the dishwasher, no matter what sticks to it: salad leaves, sauces, crusts of burnt food, fruit skin, whatever. Usually really thick stuff does not dissolve, but either stick to the dishes or assemble in the botton somewhere around the sieves above the pump sump.

After each wash she takes the mess out (or asks me to do so), and removes the sieves to rinse them, and that is when, occasionally, seeds from melons and other debris fall into the pump sump. From there they are sucked into the pump and damage the pump wheel. I had all kinds of things in the pump, from half rotten noodles to stainless steel  screws with everything you may think of in between.

Pulling the dishwasher out of the kitchen block and changing the pump takes me around an hour of work, a replacement pump costs around 50 Euros, I think of buying a 10-pack to get a discount.

If your wife asks you to rinse the dishes (at least the ones which have "attachments") ... do so, it makes perfect sense.
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Nimral

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For me one and only goal is - WITHOUT a tool for controling the changes AND the state of other languages in relation - any diskussion is meaningless.
"Any" is always such an absolute term. Sorry if I bug you once more, I have already done so in other threads, but I think your approach is only one of many, and it is the most labour intensive one, and would, btw, require the wiki servers migrated to a newer version of the Mediawiki.

Now there is no harm in doing things "right", even if it labour intensive, but to me missing time is one of the problems why the wiki is partially in such a bad shape, preserving time should therefore be the top priority, and I would be willing to sacrifice 100% grammatical correctness, as long as the translation errors are tolerable and not at all misleading.

I do also not see any reasons what multiple methods should not peacefully coexist: the tool-based approach if there is an author capable and willing to do it at hand, and the automated approach if there isn't.
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af0815

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For me one and only goal is - WITHOUT a tool for controling the changes AND the state of other languages in relation - any diskussion is meaningless.
"Any" is always such an absolute term. Sorry if I bug you once more, I have already done so in other threads, but I think your approach is only one of many, and it is the most labour intensive one, and would, btw, require the wiki servers migrated to a newer version of the Mediawiki.
Sometimes you must migrate to a newer version, because the version is outdated and unsupported and this is the time to implement newer techniques.
regards
Andreas

Nimral

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:-) I'd rather start right now to "Make Pascal Great Again" with what is at hand :-)

If the wiki servers get updated in the future, great, I'll happily work with whatever is provided then.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2022, 01:16:26 pm by Nimral »
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