Chasing the latest web craze - debate

[PascalDragon]

Hey PascalDragon,

I don't care about Ruby, PHP or whatever because I don't want to deal with them.

I don't care about bullies that try to shove their beliefs down someone else's throat.

Now where does that attitude come from? I wrote that I don't care and that I don't want to use Ruby or PHP or whatever. I never wrote that you or anyone else has to use Object Pascal. I simply stated why I do and what possibilities there are for those that want to use Object Pascal for this like I do. So if you took that as some kind of offence or attack, then this was not my intention.

[Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno]

Hey PascalDragon,

Now where does that attitude come from?

Well, that attitude comes from the fact that you chose to start one of your arguments with "I don't care...".

It doesn't really matter what comes after that. You've already set the tone. Anything after that is just bullish.

You see, looking at your profile, with a couple thousand posts, the classification of Hero Member(granted, not your choice of words) and the fact that day in, day out you demonstrate a firm grasp of the innards of Lazarus/FPC puts you in a rather delicate position of being considered an example to follow.

So when you set the tone that you "don't care" about something, younger fellow programmers, young in knowledge, not in age, will tend to subconsciously imitate you. And that toxic tone is what festers and brings about the rancid tech bro culture that we need to shed.

If you, instead, started your argument with something along the lines: "I've invested a lot on my current path, so I don't have he expertize to comment or advise on something else", I would never have given you grief.

But that wasn't your choice, right? You chose to start with "I don't care...".

Do you now get why the attitude came about?

Cheers,
Gus

[devEric69]

@Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno: amho, you're getting angry all by yourself, and you are creating a flameware from scratch. You have truncated @PascalDragon's proposals, by deleting his sentence, his thought just before (perhaps due to reading too quickly?). A less impartial quote would have been:

You can just use what's familiar. I don't care about Ruby, PHP or whatever [snip] etc

I read "You can". And then, I don't read "You must necessarily use Object Pascal". Peace between languages.

[Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno]

Hey devEric69,

@Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno:

Please, call me Gus. .oO( Is no one aware of the faux middle name as the convention for preferred name to use? )

I read "You can". And then, I don't read "You must necessarily use Object Pascal". Peace between languages.

Well, you see, that's what you've got wrong.
My change in attitude towards PascalDragon is not because he's advocating for this language against some other. In that regard I have no quandary.
I've been doing both sides of this equation professionally and while I have a passion for Object Pascal(Native Desktop Apps) and CakePHP(Web devel), I can't call myself a professional if I let my passions blind me in serving the best interests of a client.

My attitude change is due to the tone of micro-aggression the he used and that such tone is the basis of much of the toxic environment in the tech bro culture.

If it wasn't for that use of micro-aggression, I wouldn't be in this hopeless crusade of social justice. I would be politely going back and forth with my arguments and experience. As I actually did in a second reply to his post.
Ermm, now who's the one that didn't read the rest of the thread?

Now do you understand where I'm coming from?

Cheers,
Gus
PS: @trev I have to admit that this has devolved into something that the original OP doesn't have to be subjected to.
Would you be so kind to decide where to snip this out and then give it another Title like you did for the other thread?
Many, many thanks in advance!!

[trev]

My attitude change is due to the tone of micro-aggression the he used and that such tone is the basis of much of the toxic environment in the tech bro culture.

I think your imagination is playing tricks on you. Perhaps dial down your micro-aggression detector or send it in for recalibration ;-)

[Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno]

Hey Trev,

I think your imagination is playing tricks on you. Perhaps dial down your micro-aggression detector or send it in for recalibration ;-)

While I may admit that you can be right, in the case of toxic community behaviour I think we always should sin on overreacting  and not sin underreacting.
It's really stuck with me, ever since I've first heard it, that: For things to go bad, it only takes a good man to say nothing.
And we had the Nazis due to that. We have the current state of misogyny due to that. We have the current state of tech bro toxicity due to that.
I'm not saying that I'm a good man, I have my devastating faults for sure, I just don't want to pile more manure on that pile of sh*t that is the tech bro culture.

That's it. That's what I'm trying to say.

Cheers,
Gus

[PierceNg]

And it only took 20 posts for Godwin's Law to make its appearance.

[Blade]

Per the title of this thread, I don't think moving or creating apps for the web is a mere "fad" or "craze".  It's been worldwide big business for quite a while now and will remain so for the foreseeable future. 

In the context of Lazarus and the LCL, an useable open-source web component library (Pas2JS Widgetset) is clearly needed.  Outside looking in, appears it needs more developers with such skills, to speed up progress.

I don't think it will be the "be all, end all" for everyone and clearly for more heavy duty type applications a person may need to target the OS more specifically or have to look elsewhere because the scope of the project is so large. 

However, Lazarus focuses a lot on the client-side and desktops, so we have projects like LAMW and cross-compiling for other OSes.  I think more focus on HTML client apps is inline with Lazarus.  After all, we have the transpiler (Pas2JS), so the next logical step is putting it to greater use.  And in that regard, usability appears to have floundered a bit and moved quite slow, thus the full potential is not being realized.

[Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno]

Hey PierceNg,

And it only took 20 posts for Godwin's Law to make its appearance.

According to Wikipedia:

Godwin's law, short for Godwin's law of Nazi analogies, is an Internet adage asserting that "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler becomes more likely.

Godwin's law - Wikipedia

I didn't make an analogy. I stated a fact that has been written in history books and researched extensively in social sciences: When good men do nothing, things go to sh*t.
Mentioning the tragedy that happened pre, during and post second world war inflicted by the ideology of the nationalist party, what we now call the Nazis, is just because it's still quite vivid in the collective mind of us all.

I could explain what an analogy is, or explain what a fact is and how they differ from each other. But I guess you're smart, since you quoted Godwin's law of Nazi analogies, and that would be patronizing.

Patronizing, another micro-aggression that's a red flag in toxic behaviour.

Nonetheless, your total disregard for the 2 following tragedies that I mention is quite intriguing.
Let's mention the Nazis, but let's forget about the harmful misogyny toward women and the toxic tech bro culture, hum?

Cheers,
Gus

[cappe]

Pascaldragon "And who says that Lazarus/FPC isn't the best job? There are frameworks like mORMot that can help with the backend. And for the frontend you can use the LCL if you have a custom client or you can use Pas2JS with TMS Web Core or my work-in-progress Web Component Library if you want a JS-based solution."

Nice job pascaldragon, when do you think database support on your pas2js_widget modifications is ready?

[PascalDragon]

Hey PascalDragon,

Now where does that attitude come from?

Well, that attitude comes from the fact that you chose to start one of your arguments with "I don't care...".

I didn't start with "I don't care". The whole part of the post reads like this:

And who says that Lazarus/FPC isn't the best job? There are frameworks like mORMot that can help with the backend. And for the frontend you can use the LCL if you have a custom client or you can use Pas2JS with TMS Web Core or my work-in-progress Web Component Library if you want a JS-based solution.

The main advantage of this is that you don't need learn a new language. You can just use what's familiar. I don't care about Ruby, PHP or whatever because I don't want to deal with them. And I want to deal with as less JS as possible as well, thus I use Pas2JS. And a web client is more portable and simpler for users than having to install some binary client.

Where I wrote the "I don't care" is near the end of the post (which was even larger considering the other quotes).

Do you now get why the attitude came about?

No, I still don't. In my opinion you're making an elephant out of a fly to use a German saying.

If you really want to see micro aggression then look at my replies to posts by jamie when they're defending their abuse of code generator implementation details of Delphi and then complain that FPC doesn't duplicate them.

In the context of Lazarus and the LCL, an useable open-source web component library (Pas2JS Widgetset) is clearly needed.  Outside looking in, appears it needs more developers with such skills, to speed up progress.

Oh, definitely. I'm in no way experienced enough yet and I'm essentially learning this whole client side web browser stuff as I go. Not to mention that I have a ton of other projects to work on as well.

Nice job pascaldragon, when do you think database support on your pas2js_widget modifications is ready?

I have yet to look at how the LCL handles DB controls. But at least a client side REST based TDataset is already available through pas2js itself.

[devEric69]

As they do on faceBook, I give a "like" @PascalDragon: +1.
And I give @Gustavo 'Gus' Carreno, a "down": -1.

Peace on the lazarus site .

[PierceNg]

Nice job pascaldragon, when do you think database support on your pas2js_widget modifications is ready?

What are you looking for in terms of "database support" for transpiled-to-Javascript run-in-browser code?

For me I envisage pas2js code running in the browser to be making API calls to some server (or even server-less lambda thing like https://github.com/c600g/fpc-lambda-runtime) and let the server-side handle persistence.

[PascalDragon]

Nice job pascaldragon, when do you think database support on your pas2js_widget modifications is ready?

What are you looking for in terms of "database support" for transpiled-to-Javascript run-in-browser code?

For me I envisage pas2js code running in the browser to be making API calls to some server (or even server-less lambda thing like https://github.com/c600g/fpc-lambda-runtime) and let the server-side handle persistence.

In my opinion cappe is talking about DB-aware controls. Like with the LCL they don't care where the data comes from (be it remote API/REST call like you mention or a local DB) and are simply about displaying the data and allowing the user to manipulate it (which would then result in more API calls of the dataset to notify the server of the changes).

[marcov]

If you, instead, started your argument with something along the lines: "I've invested a lot on my current path, so I don't have he expertize to comment or advise on something else", I would never have given you grief.

Suggesting that is as leading as what you accuse PascalDragon of.