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Author Topic: More componenets.  (Read 6390 times)

ASBzone

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2021, 02:44:18 am »
I think the FreeBSD Forum moderators put it best:
;D
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funlw65

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2021, 04:41:53 am »
...
What are you talking about?
...

On what foundation is CustomDrawn based/built?
Is there a blueprint with the schematic of what is desired? How it should work? What was achieved until now? You know, to encourage contribution...

But first of all, in which percentage is CustomDrawn as universal GUI supported/promoted by today's developers and "important users" (if there are such users)?

avra

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2021, 08:42:17 am »
Why doesn't Lazarus make two installation options, like CodeTyphon, which is a standard installation(as current) and a large installation with all available components?
I have made ct4laz project which aims at providing CodeTyphon unique components to Lazarus users. You can find those components in OPM and they all have pl_ prefix. Bringing them into default installation would make Lazarus download be almost 1GB, and also make users having less then 2GB RAM unable to compile Lazarus - and no one would like that. So, for several reasons there is no need to bloat Lazarus with something that can be installed with a few clicks.
ct2laz - Conversion between Lazarus and CodeTyphon
bithelpers - Bit manipulation for standard types
pasettimino - Siemens S7 PLC lib

JuhaManninen

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2021, 11:25:03 am »
On what foundation is CustomDrawn based/built?
Is there a blueprint with the schematic of what is desired? How it should work? What was achieved until now?
It was started by Felipe years ago. He implemented it quite quickly up to its current state but recently he has not been very active.
I don't think there is a blueprint or a schematic. You must study the sources and ask detailed questions.
It should work well but unfortunately it does not. It is alpha state.
To see what was achieved until now, please test and study it.

Quote
You know, to encourage contribution...
It is funny how new users want to encourage contribution from other people.
"If only you explained things well then contributions would pour in!" The reality is different.

Quote
But first of all, in which percentage is CustomDrawn as universal GUI supported/promoted by today's developers and "important users" (if there are such users)?
"CustomDrawn as universal GUI"?
LCL binds to native widgetsets on different platforms. GTKx and QTx are considered native on many Unix related systems.
CustomDrawn would be nice especially for embedded and low-end systems but currently it does not work well.
The percentage of CustomDrawn promotion is low. Somebody should improve it and then promote.
Mostly Lazarus trunk and FPC 3.2 on Manjaro Linux 64-bit.

seghele0

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2021, 11:34:33 am »
May I thank everyone for the answers.
I am surprised that there are still people working with a very old PC, a new one costs barely 500 euros. Maybe there are still people who don't know we're already in the year 2021.
A doable scenario is to release a new version of a big Lazarus installer, after an update of the FPC, which is not every year.
In addition to the special release, the current small Lazarus can continue as current if this were still necessary.
If there is an opinion that it is rediculous to make a special Lazarus version with a big installation of components, then this means that CodeTyphon has made an unnecessary move with there  extended version.
Are the makers of CT really stupid?
Conclusion:
Perhaps a collaboration with CT is a solution to make a better and more efficient product for everyone, young and old.
I hope that it will be thoroughly considered before throwing everything in the trash can.

 ;)

JuhaManninen

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2021, 11:53:46 am »
May I thank everyone for the answers.
I am surprised that there are still people working with a very old PC, a new one costs barely 500 euros. Maybe there are still people who don't know we're already in the year 2021.
Uhhh... Do you mean people should spend 500€ for a new computer only because you want to have bloated SW?

Quote
A doable scenario is to release a new version of a big Lazarus installer, after an update of the FPC, which is not every year.
In addition to the special release, the current small Lazarus can continue as current if this were still necessary.
Somehow you did not understand the answers. Lazarus strategy is to use a slim distribution with easy installation of online packages.
However you or anybody can create a competing installation with all packages included and installed. This is open source with GPL.

Quote
If there is an opinion that it is rediculous to make a special Lazarus version with a big installation of components, then this means that CodeTyphon has made an unnecessary move with there  extended version.
Are the makers of CT really stupid?
CT has a different strategy. It is important to differentiate, otherwise it would be a simple copy.
Clearly CT is the right choice for you. Why do you want to turn Lazarus into CT? Please read the answers you got again.

Quote
Conclusion:
Perhaps a collaboration with CT is a solution to make a better and more efficient product for everyone, young and old.
I hope that it will be thoroughly considered before throwing everything in the trash can.
Huh, you don't know the history.
I am happy CT exists and I am happy they have different strategy.
I just don't understand why you come here to complain that Lazarus is not CT.
Mostly Lazarus trunk and FPC 3.2 on Manjaro Linux 64-bit.

Handoko

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2021, 12:04:56 pm »
Are the makers of CT really stupid?

I really appreciate and understand why you want a big installer. But it seems you didn't 'really' read the answers. It's not about stupidity nor the advantages of a big installer. It is about manpower. Lazarus/FPC is maintained by volunteers all over the world, I'm sorry but I would say not-very organized volunteers. CT is maintained by a team, in a uni or a research center or a building or whatever I don't know. They may have a team leader or clear organization structure. And they might get paid monthly for doing it.

If there is an opinion that it is rediculous to make a special Lazarus version with a big installation of components

No. Your suggestion is a good suggestion as I already mentioned some users will like it. But the benefits clearly do not outweigh the effort, unless there is volunteer for it.

Perhaps a collaboration with CT is a solution to make a better and more efficient product for everyone, young and old.

It is a good suggestion. You can try to contact them if you want. But I'm afraid to tell you, you won't get any good result. If you follow the story long ago, you will know there were some not-good experience between CT and Lazarus. On their forum, if someone 'smells' too-Lazarusish, they will ban the user.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 01:31:31 pm by Handoko »

funlw65

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2021, 12:25:45 pm »
...
If there is an opinion that it is rediculous to make a special Lazarus version with a big installation of components, then this means that CodeTyphon has made an unnecessary move with there  extended version.
Are the makers of CT really stupid?
Conclusion:
Perhaps a collaboration with CT is a solution to make a better and more efficient product for everyone, young and old.
I hope that it will be thoroughly considered before throwing everything in the trash can. ;)

I would ask you, what is the real reason you can't use CT? Better saying, "avoiding" CT...

Handoko

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2021, 12:50:36 pm »
I am surprised that there are still people working with a very old PC, a new one costs barely 500 euros. Maybe there are still people who don't know we're already in the year 2021.

You mentioned Euros, I guess you're from a developed country. I'm from Indonesia, a developing country. I'm a computer technician, most of my clients are sohos. I haven't made a survey but I can roughly to tell you:

- 60% CPU I handled recently were Core2 Duo
- 40% CPU I handled recently were Core i3 and above
- 50% computers I handled recently were having 2GB of memory
- 30% computers I handled recently were having 4GB of memory

seghele0

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2021, 02:10:12 pm »
Apparently, the spirit of negativism is great about this proposal.
I will continue to use CT and retain Lazarus as a reference point, because of this very well-functioning forum.
I would like to thank everyone for their personal opinions and fully respect them.
About the 500 euro, I had not taken account of countries outside Europe, sorry and sorry.
I would like to thank everyone for their personal opinions and fully respect them.
 ;)

Martin_fr

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2021, 03:23:09 pm »
Apparently, the spirit of negativism is great about this proposal.
It's based on our experiences. It's not against the idea itself. But about the requirements it would "burden" on some of us.

Let me tell you. I am (among other things) the person who builds the installers for Windows.  I do that in my personal spare time.
I joined the team for other reasons, building installers is not my idea of having a good time. But someone has to do it....

I have no problem if there is an all-include installer (in addition to what we have).
But:
- I have neither time nor interest to build it.
- I have no time, to manage the bug reports about 3rd party components that will then end up on our bug tracker
   (And I can tell you neither has anyone else in the team)

So for that reason I will not build it. And for that reason no one else in the team will....

So we do need someone who does.

But I am willing to make a peace offering:
- I will run the build script (Windows) for such an installer, and upload it (I cant guarantee if it will be the main download site, or an alternative side).
  That way people would have an installer build from a trusted source.

But I will only do that, if there is a person who does all the other work.
- provide the build script (it must run to completion without interaction)
- test it before I run it, to make sure there are no build errors
- test the resulting installer.
- answer any relevant bug in our bugtracker
.....

This is what I personally am willing to do, and the requirements for me doing so. After all, its my personal spare time.

I would still have to run it past the rest of the team. But at least an upload to a separate sourceforge page should be possible.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 03:25:14 pm by Martin_fr »

lucamar

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2021, 04:23:17 pm »
About the 500 euro, I had not taken account of countries outside Europe, sorry and sorry.

It's not only outside Europe: we (from Spain) have about a 10% customers (including some from the countries around) with Pentiums and lower (down to 8 bits machines), which means we need to have (and use) them too to support them. There are many reasons why people cling to old hardware but want "new" software ... and some of them even make sense ;D

I'm not exactly poor and I'd have to think long and deep on the necessity before expending 500 eur in a new machine: my current "main" one (which should last me another ten years) is a 200 eur. laptop with which I'm quite happy. :)
Turbo Pascal 3 CP/M - Amstrad PCW 8256 (512 KB !!!) :P
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(K|L|X)Ubuntu 12..18, Windows XP, 7, 10 and various DOSes.

ASBzone

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2021, 05:13:47 pm »
Apparently, the spirit of negativism is great about this proposal.

Disagreement is not automatically synonymous with negativity.

Especially when it is well articulated disagreement, based on documented and verifiable experience.

Optimism is nice and desirable, until it insists on ignoring objective information about risks, challenges and resources.   Then it becomes wild-eyed utopianism.

BTW, you aren't offering a proposal, because a proposal does not consist 99%+ of what others must do for your benefit.  What you are doing is making a feature request.
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seghele0

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2021, 06:23:10 pm »
Martin_fr,
Thank you for the info, the future will tell........
 :)

GetMem

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Re: More componenets.
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2021, 07:22:55 pm »
Realistically speaking, how many third party package does an average developer use? Ten, twenty? I certainly don't need more the five. Even if manpower is not an issue, what is the purpose of a super big IDE? I'm not against it, just trying to understand the reason behind it.

@seghele0
Are you willing to invest some of your free time in creating a big ide? 

 

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