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Author Topic: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl  (Read 21517 times)

Bi0T1N

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #135 on: August 24, 2020, 12:17:24 pm »
I don't expect it to. Interested people will find a project, and are usually searching for live content, rather than autogenerated pages. We do bad there too (as in updating websites etc), but that won't change on github.
I would help to improve the website by fixing typos and other things if it would be put e.g. on Github. Just browse to here and you'll notice that there are two entries for November 28th, 2017 and February 15th, 2017 (one with i instead of y).
Please have a look at the Rust Blog which uses a modern style (mobile friendly) and additionally it is fully editable through Github. In theory everyone could write an article (about the language, an own application, library, ...) which would then go "live" if accepted by the maintainer(s).

The Free Pascal website is available in SVN as well. One can provide patches already if someone is enthusiastic enough.
Didn't knew about that but I also have never really browsed the SVN as I prefer the Github mirror from Graeme Geldenhuys.

Is there any place where people could come together and then start working on something? Like fixing a bug, maybe a single person isn't capable or motivated enough to work alone on it but two together could solve it.
Discord? Gitter? Microsoft Teams? What is there else?
In my opinion the bugtracker, mail and IRC are too deprecated and not comfortable enough to share code/links/suggestions (some of them also don't allow private conversations).
I think that's a pretty good idea as it's more fun to work in a team and exchange ideas. :)
I'm only familiar with Gitter from Indy so far - besides the public chat you also have the opportunity to message someone privately.

I don't use systems like Discord, Microsoft Teams, Zoom, etc. Though that Gitter one does read interesting. We'd have to check whether it's possible to run that with a private instance as well...
Gitter is fully open-source, see here. However, if you host own software please keep the software always up-to-date!

Please have a look at the Rust Blog which uses a modern style (mobile friendly)

That's not modern, that is 1997 html 1 design. A clickable list of urls to the actual topics. It looks like something from a failed html->txt converter.
Come on, please browse the full webpage and not just the link I gave as an example.
It's a simple but awesome and responsive design (without any fancy crap). Nothing like this probably existed in 1997. Especially because you don't need to know HTML at all to write an article. This also reduces the obstacles for a proficient writer. :)

marcov

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #136 on: August 27, 2020, 02:28:26 pm »
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Aaaand, we are back with the universal "you shouldn't need that" GIT solution to all problems. Seriously, they should just throw away the manual, and print that on a single sheet in big letters.
There is a reason why it's Github, Gitee and Gitlab and not SVNHub or SVNLab. ;)
Just accept that git is better and has won. Nobody except some old white men will remember SVN in a few years - nobody will cry about that. Period.

Even then there is a choice between doing an haphazard migration now and waiting a few years till they finally get their act together. (and I'm not even so sure about that, it might be that github 10 years in the future will be like sf now).

Maybe then its users will actually be able to give to the point details, instead of just banging on about how popular it is and you shouldn't want anything else.

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fpc main server will stay using svn.
There are too much problems to do the conversion to git with very little advantage.
If someone is against something, he will always find something which prevents it.

That is a gross oversimplification. But it also works the other way, people sometimes overlook the details if they have a real big drive for something.

Anyway, in my case there are multiple levels of against it. Most have been said. My original position was that I always thought it was too much work for benefit, but assumed git was a netto plus (which I mainly considered to be better merging and the more seamless offline work of a DVCS). With  the losing of global revisions and more cmdline actions for a small fix as main productivity sacrifices/problems.

There was a majority of devels in favour of looking into GIT and a migration about an year ago. The wiki page about the migration is mostly my initial list of SVN features used that needed equivalents in GIT.

Some had been (allegedly) fixed, like per repo CRLF handling (older GIT needed manual client configuration, which was a risk, one of the reasons we migrated from CVS to SVN). 

Losing global rev still hurts, and IMHO guids are unwieldy but maybe with something webbased linked to it, it will work out, and strictly speaking global revs also always needed branch as context in some cases, though that usually wasn't the problem, with only a handful of SVN branches (trunk,fixes) in multi-user use.

That left (to my surprise) the merge history stuff. I never expected a newer VCS to have a problem there, it was only on my list to have the alternative investigated before rather than after the migration.

But now we are a full year further, with all kinds of advocates writing lengthy posts and mails on it, and still we are not further than stuffing it manually in commit messages, and then writing software to string it together and that that is normal because GIT is so popular and you shouldn't want to have it any different way.

That is not progress, that is regression.

But it would be great if somebody (you) take care (administrator) of the fpc GitHub and GitLab mirrored site.
For example, if somebody does a pull request, you transform this into a svn patch and sent it to fpc-svn.

This won't work. A very large percentage of the patches are tossed back to the users for rewrite/cleanup. This is much harder with push/pull requests and at that point the history is toast anyway. The ones that apply cleanly and unmodified (my guess: about a third) are the trivial ones that work with any VCS system.

It is no use saying you accept pull requests if you have to reject all of them, except from some usual suspects that could do it either way. Maybe a merge request size limit for pull requests would put some onus on the submitter to only submit doable requests(iow only for trivial one line stuff), but that would probably require gitlab hacking etc again.

Also, the cloud stuff never will be anything but a mirror.  The central server will still be locally owned gitlab setup.

This may work with new languages with all new codebases directly in the advocated style, but with a 50 years old multi dialect language with many styles in circulation, AND leaning on submissions for expansions in many aspects of the project, it is different. Just be a bit flexible, being so rigid makes you look old
omfg - telling me to be flexible but being a stubborn yourself? ::)

As said I'm pretty lax as it comes to coding styles. That I say no to a hopeless project like rearrange everything stylewise,  write long documents to nail down the coding style to every last detail, build an automated custom framework to enforce it and then keep supporting it and discussing it ad infinitum doesn't mean I'm automatically an old stubborn ass in this.

It is simply pragmatism. At the very least before you start converting 10M lines of projects worth to such setup it should be fully production tested in a smaller but not trivial project.

And as far as stubbornness wrt GIT goes, I do know the project intimately after 20 years, and I studied GIT at least somewhat and tracked the discussions for 5 years+. I also come with arguments that are more than a simple popularity contest, or idealist advocacy copied right from the web. So please get off your high horse and do the same.

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It's simply a mistake that nobody in the beginning defined a coding standard. Not my failure as I wasn't involved in this mistake - just here now to tell you that someone made a mistake and seems nobody feels responsible to solve it!

No, you are declaring it a mistake to justify your urgent need to nail down codestyle and converters. That is a choice not a decree that fell down from the heavens.

And I don't agree with that choice.

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If you want to gain useful experience for a corporate career, I suggest to tackle that. Learn to cooperate, learn to adapt, learn to bear responsibility and most of all DO PRODUCTIVE WORK. Everybody can stand to the side and find something to complain about, but that is not productive.
Nobody who is really doing productive work works with methods from 1990. Especially in software development.

Hahaha, you would be surprised what old crap you encounter outside a few shiny new tech giants.


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The website is less of a "could be changed", but more of a "is the change really really necessary?"
For me that sounds like: nothing is going to be changed!

Very few serious things have been suggested. Only knee-jerk suggestions to copy and paste fashionable setups without any looking into how FPC/Lazarus is organized and what its needs are. Basically redrawing the whole infrastructure on the back of a beercoasters in 5 minutes flat, while dozens work with a multitude of scenarios with the current setup, where processes and setup have matured together for several years. Replacing one piece is already a big undertaking.

Proposals often also conflict, e.g. arguing to use 3rd party services and arguing the very next message that a problem can be fixed with (server) software modification/customization.

It is hard to take such comments seriously, specially in cases when additional prodding doesn't get any more details, and only expands the magnitude of the changes rather than rein them in  (like making a discussion about VCS into an infrastructure of enforcing code styles)

I dared you to come up with a functional mergetracking setup for GIT, and you came back with a quickly looked up command (which didn't solve it) and then quietly sidestepped the issue from then on, and continued on the tired old "it is more popular" "you are old" trajectories. Typical.

Agreed, if you contribute something you should also take care its getting documented properly. Otherwise its useless if nobody knows about it or knows how to use it.

You don't always know the full scope. Major functionality is often created in trajectories of an year and longer, and then some more before it comes into endusers hand.

Like the codeformatting discussion, such oversimplified mantras often don't work. But still I think there could be some improvement there (and there have been in the past, e.g. the userchanges pages). New features should at least be written down anywhere, with some pointers for documenters.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 10:43:37 pm by marcov »

Fred vS

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #137 on: August 27, 2020, 03:26:01 pm »
Quote
Quote from:marcov on August 22, 2020, 07:45:16 pm
 
Quote
Quote from: Fred vS on August 22, 2020, 07:45:16 pm
    But it would be great if somebody (you) take care (administrator) of the fpc GitHub and GitLab mirrored site.
    For example, if somebody does a pull request, you transform this into a svn patch and sent it to fpc-svn.

This won't work. A very large of the patches are tossed back to the users for rewrite/cleanup. This is much harder with push/pull requests and at that point the history is toast anyway.

I was talking about the end-users.
I can understand that people likes the Github or GitLab web sites, very intuitive, with easy "Download as Zip" button, etc...

There is also the great "Issues" feature.

So the solution to have mirrored sites of  svn on Github or GitLab, regularly synchronized, is perfect.

And for all the "Pull-Request" from Github or GitLab, a clear message saying that those sites are only mirrors, that you better sent a patch using the svn server, that those pull-request will be ignored ( but not by asdf1337 who will gently make patches for it and sent it to svn-fpc  ;) ).

Staying with svn mirrored on Github and GitLab simplify all and makes majority of people happy.

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« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 04:12:46 pm by Fred vS »
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Kays

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-index
« Reply #138 on: August 27, 2020, 05:14:12 pm »
[…]
Agreed, if you contribute something you should also take care its getting documented properly. Otherwise its useless if nobody knows about it or knows how to use it.

You don't always know the full scope. Major functionality is often created in trajectories of an year and longer, and then some more before it comes into endusers hand. […]
  • I didn’t write that but asdf1337 did.
  • Well, that’s bad practice. There should be a policy in place that doesn’t allow anything to be released unless it’s properly documented. Merely mentioning it, “some pointers for documenters”, is not sufficient.
Yours Sincerely
Kai Burghardt

marcov

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-index
« Reply #139 on: August 27, 2020, 05:34:53 pm »
I didn’t write that but asdf1337 did.

I'm sorry then.

Quote
Well, that’s bad practice. There should be a policy in place that doesn’t allow anything to be released unless it’s properly documented. Merely mentioning it, “some pointers for documenters”, is not sufficient.

It is easy to say, but like with the style stuff very hard to enforce in a volunteer driven effort. In a company such things are easy, you just tell them to and hold them to account, not so in a volunteer project.

Release progress is already too slow to pile on more delaying policies.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 05:46:30 pm by marcov »

Thaddy

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #140 on: August 27, 2020, 05:42:56 pm »
And FreePascal is a volunteer project with a very, very high standard of technical documentation. I wish I had the same kind of standard available all the time when I was still working professionally. That does not often happen - read: lacks most of the time. (except in banking)
Reason: professional programmers tend not to like documenting and team leaders find it too costly as long as the code works.

In banking there are usually higher standards, because functional design, technical design and code is part of any audit: you have to... Strange but true.

Of course you will find 1% errors and 1% omissions, but the FPC documentation scores 98% which is much higher than most professionals or volunteers do achieve.
Lazarus is a different question...
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 05:51:15 pm by Thaddy »

marcov

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #141 on: August 27, 2020, 06:21:49 pm »
So the solution to have mirrored sites of  svn on Github or GitLab, regularly synchronized, is perfect.

As said there is a majority of core devels in favour of migrating to GIT, with an own gitlab install. Jonas even managed to get the whole history (CVS+SVN) into GIT, though there are still some issues remaining, that is considered doable.

So it is the practical details of maintaining the fixes branch that are the main problem.

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And for all the "Pull-Request" from Github or GitLab, a clear message saying that those sites are only mirrors, that you better sent a patch using the svn server, that those pull-request will be ignored ( but not by asdf1337 who will gently make patches for it and sent it to svn-fpc  ;) ).

Some devels get starry eyed with pull requests too, so I expect some experimenting. But they will be on our own gitlab instance, not the externally hosted mirrors. Forwarding would be hard since authentication systems would be different.

It is not critical path, so a decision on it is not really a blocker for GIT migration (though having many unusable pull requests pending looks bad).  I'm bringing it up because the constant assumptions that this will make contributing magnitudes easier for non regular contributors now. I doubt that very, very strongly for reasons already stated.   


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Staying with svn mirrored on Github and GitLab simplify all and make majority of people happy.

Or the GIT mirrored on there. But nothing more.

twolivesbehindschedule

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #142 on: October 02, 2020, 06:37:35 pm »
People likes polished stuff, and Pascal was never polished even back then, I gave up on it once due to suggestions by people that now I know that they don't understand the strengths and the weaknesses of any language. I hope this language to survive and get developed and remain unpolished at the same time


EDIT


With the intent to give a tiny bit of help to this community
I will lay here my experience from microsoft support forum for VS where programers get paid well to try to answer any BS of a question I made there... this is also the case for independent forums where I don't know if they get paid or not. Knowing that you people not get paid for answering questions, and solving other people's problems I will not blame you

but I suggest before change the name of any application start by changing your moto

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When you ask a question that is actually answered in the documentation, you are either lazy or a moron.

Of course I will not read every documentation in existence and of course I will ask for convenience for anyone having the time and the mood to answer me, learning on the way...

How many new users have come here asking questions that have been answered somewhere and be considered morons?
Attitude maybe the problem
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 08:09:08 pm by twolivesbehindschedule »

Thaddy

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #143 on: October 02, 2020, 08:16:17 pm »
Well, if you do not read documentation..... >:D Seriously, what an idiot.
FACTS are the documentation. Opinion is a different matter. Again: what an idiot.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 08:18:05 pm by Thaddy »

Martin_fr

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #144 on: October 02, 2020, 09:12:56 pm »
I will lay here my experience from microsoft support forum for VS where programers get paid well to try to answer any BS of a question I made there... this is also the case for independent forums where I don't know if they get paid or not. Knowing that you people not get paid for answering questions, and solving other people's problems I will not blame you

but I suggest before change the name of any application start by changing your moto

Quote
When you ask a question that is actually answered in the documentation, you are either lazy or a moron.

Of course I will not read every documentation in existence and of course I will ask for convenience for anyone having the time and the mood to answer me, learning on the way...

Well, if you do not read documentation..... >:D Seriously, what an idiot.
FACTS are the documentation. Opinion is a different matter. Again: what an idiot.

Well, there are people here who are not paid (i.e., not paid for anything they do on the forum), and who a nice fellows and will do their best to help anyone with any questions. Including stuff that is documented. At least point you do the specific docs.
The term "help" can have different meanings though. I.e., sometimes its a final solution, other times it is a how to find the answer ("not giving out the fish, but teach how to fish").

And well, there are people here who are not paid and make it their business to throw out insults or insult-like comments. (which some would argue makes them the opposite of the bodily opening generally used for food intake.... ;) ).

You just have to ask, ignore those who are less friendly and use the answers of others.


Quote
but I suggest before change the name of any application start by changing your moto
The forum is a place for user to user conversation.
While you will find some of the developers/team members here, and may get occasional answers from them, the main focus of the forum is that users can converse with other users.
Under that consideration, the forum is not bound to any "moto" of the project.
It is a collection of the combined moto of all our users.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 09:15:21 pm by Martin_fr »

440bx

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #145 on: October 02, 2020, 10:36:49 pm »
Well, if you do not read documentation..... >:D Seriously, what an idiot.
FACTS are the documentation. Opinion is a different matter. Again: what an idiot.
I doubt that gratuitously insulting people leads to desirable results. 

For the record, if you had read the documentation you would have known that boolean operators are not evaluated left to right as you claimed.  Didn't you read the documentation ?
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trev

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #146 on: October 03, 2020, 05:22:06 am »
Well, if you do not read documentation..... >:D Seriously, what an idiot.
FACTS are the documentation. Opinion is a different matter. Again: what an idiot.

You are free to not help, but abusing other forum members is simply going out of your way to be unhelpful which detracts from an otherwise very friendly and helpful community.
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devEric69

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #147 on: October 03, 2020, 09:37:21 am »
If a person claims not to want to read the documentation, so I'm one of the people he sees as "his" documentation.
To put it another way, he takes me - in a certain way - for an idiot, an owed servant.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2020, 09:40:03 am by devEric69 »
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dbannon

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #148 on: October 03, 2020, 11:06:42 am »
And FreePascal is a volunteer project with a very, very high standard of technical documentation.

From what we keep hearing from Thaddy, he must have a lot of experience in this game. So, somewhat surprising that he thinks FPC and Lazarus have very, very high standards of technical documentation. Its scattered over Wiki, LHelp, PDFs and HTML and, indeed, the forum. Many, many methods are not documented anywhere. We all try to help but its a big and diffuse job.

Thaddy, if paid developers are not documenting their work, its not their fault. Its their supervisors who are negligent. But in a volunteer project, and one that does not attract big business contributions, we cannot force that documenting to happen. Dishing out personal insults to someone who does not understand that will only do harm.

Do you honestly think that OP will go off and say "Wow, Thaddy said I am an idiot, I had better improve my self" ?  Instead, he will go off and tell anyone who asks that the FPC people are rude, abusive and refuse to help anyone. Thanks !

In fact, this forum is usually helpful, polite and accurate.  Most new people's experience is good unless they are unlucky enough to attract the forum troll.

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howardpc

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #149 on: October 03, 2020, 12:44:09 pm »
Before this thread is derailed entirely, can we hold back from further Thaddy-bashing, and perhaps be a bit forgiving.
With over 10000 posts no one can say Thaddy is not an enthusiastic forum contributor. Yes, he has succeeded in annoying many people, and his current signature characterising most of us as lazy or morons does not help.
Nevertheless, there is goodness and helpfulness among all those many contributions; though when he has a bad day, we all know it, and realise he has issues.

 

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