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Author Topic: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl  (Read 31776 times)

Fred vS

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2020, 01:52:54 am »
Again, I am not advocating. I think it is great to have multiple mirrors on GitHub/GitLab/SourceForge, but if the goal is to get new users aren't they just going to find whatever pops up by Googling Free Pascal or Lazarus?

I think that the goal is to get new users using the "marketing" feature, discussion, tags of each GitHub and GitLab power.

By the way, there was some advice about the country of the server that should not be USA, so GitHub and GiLab are not welcome.

But, afaik, SourceForge has also his servers in USA, so to be logical, fpc should not have his first host server in SourceForge too.
I use Lazarus 2.2.0 32/64 and FPC 3.2.2 32/64 on Debian 11 64 bit, Windows 10, Windows 7 32/64, Windows XP 32,  FreeBSD 64.
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Kays

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-index
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2020, 03:44:28 am »
I would not care too much about representation on many repository sites, but being represented where “our” potential users are most likely looking.

If you are looking for more developers (who don’t need or want to use the software), then syncing with a couple popular repository hosts could make sense, I don’t know, but I’m primarily concerned about finding, attracting new users using our great compiler that compiles the best programming language :D.

I think, ten years ago I discovered fpc by a simple query
Code: Bash  [Select][+][-]
  1. apt-cache search pascal compiler
Therefore I think it’s important to support and maintain packages for all major OS. Currently, Ubuntu/Debian, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD all list 3.0.4 as the latest version. That version’s over two years old. sid already has 3.2.0, though, but that doesn’t count.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 03:46:15 am by Kays »
Yours Sincerely
Kai Burghardt

dbannon

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-index
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2020, 04:29:38 am »
.... Currently, Ubuntu/Debian, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD all list 3.0.4 as the latest version. That version’s over two years old. sid already has 3.2.0, though, but that doesn’t count.

In Ubuntu's case thats because Ubuntu has a policy of not changing the packages in released series.  FPC320 was released after the feature freeze for U20.04 so, FPC304 was all that was available.  Its thier way of ensuring compatibility of the packages in release for the life of that release. I imagine other distros have similar approaches. Nothing the FPC/Lazarus teams can do about that.

I have a PPA with FPC320 (and Lazarus 2.0.10) for U18.04 and U20.04 that I use to build a my app, also in a PPA. Its not hard but users who choose to use things like that do so at their own risk.

Davo
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trev

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2020, 06:17:56 am »
I would have thought the easiest people to convert to Lazarus + FPC would be those who are using Delphi ;)

I started with Delphi v1 to write tax calculators for a commercial legal publisher to put on CDs. In the early 2000s I bought Kylix so I could port my Windows router utility to FreeBSD (runs Linux binaries). In 2007 I acquired a Mac mini and wanted to port the router utility to it which is when I stumbled on Lazarus + FPC. Then for more than a decade I was back programming in C on FreeBSD and Solaris for a free access legal publisher.

On retiring I made the rather expensive mistake of buying Delphi 10.1 because it now catered for macOS, except it only had a 32 bit compiler and just as I was about to upgrade, the Embarcadero CEO announced no support without current maintenance which included no more resetting of licence counts thereby depriving one of the "permanent/perpetual" Delphi licence (subsequently walked back). At that point I rediscovered Lazarus + FPC which had improved substantially since my last experience.

Thaddy

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2020, 07:39:55 am »
trev, Lazarus was created by Delphi users, and FPC by TP users.....

But by now, there are developers who never touched either...
Object Pascal programmers should get rid of their "component fetish" especially with the non-visuals.

PascalDragon

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2020, 12:42:19 pm »
The same applies to the development of FPC/Lazarus even if I know that some people don't like Github but it's the #1 like Google is for searching the web. If you want to attract new people go to the place where they are. ;)
I mean, sure you can host your own Gitee/Gitlab instance but if the amount of volunteers is limited and the few don't even keep pace with updating/installing asked plug-ins or features why running another software?

It was already decided that if we (FPC) move to Git that we'll use our own GitLab instance with probably a GitHub mirror.
I see but it's exactly what I wrote - your Gitlab instance is kinda outdated. Even if you don't show the version (see here) one can find out that the instance uses JavaScript Cookie v2.1.3 while the official Gitlab uses JavaScript Cookie v2.2.1 (check main.*.chunk.js).
This change was made in May and went into Gitlab 12.9 and thus you run a version prior that. The recent (still supported) versions are 13.0, 13.1 and 13.2 which get important security fixes quite often. I could keep on with the Mantis Bugtracker 2.24.0 or the MediaWiki 1.3.7 but I think I've already made my point and showed that you should rethink the idea with hosting your own software - or maintain and update them ASAP (hours not weeks).
I also don't believe it'll be a good publicity if the server/software gets hacked and all the user data are exposed.

Our decision is not up to discussion. Either that or we'll simply stay with SVN which we don't mind.

Also the GitLab instance was set up around a year ago as a test balloon. We'll update it should we do the final migration.


* Pull request easier for the developer than patches?
Well not for me.
I already work with git, on my local pc, and applying a patch and comparing it in git is as easy as looking at a pull request.
I should say that for me, the online interface to compare pullrequests is no good (So my feedback comes by mail, no annotations via the online interface). I always pull the requests to my local repro, and compare them locally.
So patch/pull requests, is the exact same amount of work to me.
It depends on your view and workflow but in general it's easier to accept small patches like this, this or that one. There is not really a need to check it out locally as the review process can happen directly through your browser (additionally with CI you and the contributor see directly when creating the PR if it breaks something).
With hub a contributor don't need to leave the console at all to fork and create a pull request. The reviewer can also comment on specific lines and give suggestions, advices or hints.
In my opinion these things are big advantages for both - reviewer and contributor - compared to the current workflow with issues/patches.

Our workflow won't change with a move to Git. We'll still review locally and ensure that nothing breaks, because we do not use CI.

marcov

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2020, 01:38:15 pm »
Quote
Quote
Keep in mind, it has been looked into already. And there are steps (e.g. developers have scripts for certain tasks) in the development/release process that need heavy work to be change.
So changing the main repro is a big task (bigger than you would think)
You should probably rewrite all these "old" scripts as the design is bad if it needs svn and cannot run on other directory structures easily.

Yes. Worse, they will have to be significantly enhanced, as GIT's mergetracking is inferior to SVNs.

Quote
Nowadays your scripts run automatically if triggered by commit/user action on your Github/Gitlab/Gitee instance.

CVS already had pre/post-commit hooks, such things are already in place for 20 years.

Quote
Therefore the release process happens almost automatically and needs only some checks to verify that everything went well. Sure, it might need some time to rewrite your scripts but the benefits of it are totally worth it.

The trouble is that when you actually want to write anything for it, and get stuck (as in said defective merge tracking), all advocates suddenly take a giant step back and only mutter things "you shouldn't want that".

Quote

* Pull request easier for the developer than patches?
Well not for me.
I already work with git, on my local pc, and applying a patch and comparing it in git is as easy as looking at a pull request.
I should say that for me, the online interface to compare pullrequests is no good (So my feedback comes by mail, no annotations via the online interface). I always pull the requests to my local repro, and compare them locally.
So patch/pull requests, is the exact same amount of work to me.

The very small commits are not the problem anyway. So that benefit is definitely not for the developer. Maybe for the submitter, but more often than not that ease is paired with a dropping of submission quality (like people reformatting/renaming/recasing). An extreme is the serbod chm repository, which took me several evenings to mine anything from it. The fixes were good, but it was totally unusable, and couldn't be submitted piecemeal.

Too many unexperienced developers (either in absolute terms, or just inexperienced in working in teams where they don't call the shots), just go ahead, and only at submission time they start thinking.  That is a big problem with any VCS, and it won't be solved by a sliver of web over it.

It is an issue of spirit of teamwork/cooperation, and that is not fixed by tools.

Quote
It depends on your view and workflow but in general it's easier to accept small patches like this, this or that one. There is not really a need to check it out locally as the review process can happen directly through your browser (additionally with CI you and the contributor see directly when creating the PR if it breaks something).

(Personally I prefer a good diff tool over the webjunk, CI per request takes too long for trivial changes. CI is a good principle, but not universal)

Quote
With hub a contributor don't need to leave the console at all to fork and create a pull request. The reviewer can also comment on specific lines and give suggestions, advices or hints.
In my opinion these things are big advantages for both - reviewer and contributor - compared to the current workflow with issues/patches.

Note that those are just fixing of problems of GIT that makes simple patch creation apparently difficult.

Quote
* More contributors?
I agree that moving to e.g. Github won't bring 100 new developers but it will bring some publicity (blogs could write about the move) and that might lead to a few people who try it out and might stick to it. And after some time they might start to add their "missing feature".

I don't expect it to. Interested people will find a project, and are usually searching for live content, rather than autogenerated pages. We do bad there too (as in updating websites etc), but that won't change on github.


Martin_fr

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2020, 02:46:53 pm »
And here we are (as expected (at least as I somehow expected))

4 pages into the thread.
And not a single man-hour gained

That is no contributor has come up, and pledged an hour (or more) to do any work that would create publicity.
That is any work, that was not already planed before hand.

As said, existing contributors already have TODO list for years to come. And as far as I can tell, new contributors have not yet been sourced as a consequence of this thread. Nor does it look as if such resourcing is about to happen.

Still, at least some ideas were brought up. Unfortunately they are now hidden between lots of other messages.
Take away all the suggestions, that require work from people whose todo is already full. I.e, reduce to ideas that new independent contributors could do.

If anyone had pledged time, I would encourage that person to start gleaning those ideas, and put them on a "How to contribute" wiki page. (Existing or New? And may get extended with info for conventional contribution, i.e. patches, docs, ...).
But no one has pledged time.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 02:49:17 pm by Martin_fr »

lainz

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2020, 03:03:33 pm »
And here we are (as expected (at least as I somehow expected))

4 pages into the thread.
And not a single man-hour gained

That is no contributor has come up, and pledged an hour (or more) to do any work that would create publicity.
That is any work, that was not already planed before hand.

As said, existing contributors already have TODO list for years to come. And as far as I can tell, new contributors have not yet been sourced as a consequence of this thread. Nor does it look as if such resourcing is about to happen.

Still, at least some ideas were brought up. Unfortunately they are now hidden between lots of other messages.
Take away all the suggestions, that require work from people whose todo is already full. I.e, reduce to ideas that new independent contributors could do.

If anyone had pledged time, I would encourage that person to start gleaning those ideas, and put them on a "How to contribute" wiki page. (Existing or New? And may get extended with info for conventional contribution, i.e. patches, docs, ...).
But no one has pledged time.

I agree, well I have a lot of bugs to fix for BGRAControls, any help is welcome  :)
https://github.com/bgrabitmap/bgracontrols/issues

korba812

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2020, 05:21:21 pm »
And here we are (as expected (at least as I somehow expected))

4 pages into the thread.
And not a single man-hour gained

That is no contributor has come up, and pledged an hour (or more) to do any work that would create publicity.
That is any work, that was not already planed before hand.
A little less conversation, a little more action, please...  :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWVMXLSS1cA

Fred vS

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2020, 05:29:02 pm »
And here we are (as expected (at least as I somehow expected))
...
If anyone had pledged time,...
But no one has pledged time.

I think, like Lainz said, that the active contributors-developers have enough work and will still continue to contribute, even without pledged time.

What is missing (imho) is contributors-marketing, gurus in publicity, kings of social network, like in each serious commercial factory.

But I fear that there are very few fpc developers (and developers in general) that have those genes.

Fre;D
I use Lazarus 2.2.0 32/64 and FPC 3.2.2 32/64 on Debian 11 64 bit, Windows 10, Windows 7 32/64, Windows XP 32,  FreeBSD 64.
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asdf1337

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2020, 05:45:39 pm »
Sorry but I really have to disagree with some points. >:D


* Pull request easier for the developer than patches?
Well not for me.
I already work with git, on my local pc, and applying a patch and comparing it in git is as easy as looking at a pull request.
I should say that for me, the online interface to compare pullrequests is no good (So my feedback comes by mail, no annotations via the online interface). I always pull the requests to my local repro, and compare them locally.
So patch/pull requests, is the exact same amount of work to me.
It depends on your view and workflow but in general it's easier to accept small patches like this, this or that one. There is not really a need to check it out locally as the review process can happen directly through your browser (additionally with CI you and the contributor see directly when creating the PR if it breaks something).
With hub a contributor don't need to leave the console at all to fork and create a pull request. The reviewer can also comment on specific lines and give suggestions, advices or hints.
In my opinion these things are big advantages for both - reviewer and contributor - compared to the current workflow with issues/patches.

Our workflow won't change with a move to Git. We'll still review locally and ensure that nothing breaks, because we do not use CI.
That's one of the problems. You should not work in 2020 with methods from end of 1990. That's mostly the mistake done by old men as they slept for 20 years because everything always worked and 'never change a running system' and they didn't noticed that the world around them has changed. Now they cannot keep up with the youngsters anymore and think like 'nah I'm too old to learn something and anyway my retirement is soon'.
It's the same for company's which want to work 'agile' but still assigns several different projects to the same person - that won't work.

Quote
Quote
Keep in mind, it has been looked into already. And there are steps (e.g. developers have scripts for certain tasks) in the development/release process that need heavy work to be change.
So changing the main repro is a big task (bigger than you would think)
You should probably rewrite all these "old" scripts as the design is bad if it needs svn and cannot run on other directory structures easily.

Yes. Worse, they will have to be significantly enhanced, as GIT's mergetracking is inferior to SVNs.
Do you know about git branch --contains <hash>?
Gitlab also shows on each commit all branches/tags which contain the commit.
You cannot keep your old scripts when switching to another system. I also cannot run my Windows cmd.exe commands on Linux without adapting to the new behaviour and functionality of the operating system. I've to learn and adapt my thinking to the new environment but will be happy after I did so ;)

Maybe for the submitter, but more often than not that ease is paired with a dropping of submission quality (like people reformatting/renaming/recasing).
Well, if there is a defined standard for formatting in your project you can tell your tools about and everything will be formatted like this. But that would mean that everyone uses a defined formatting scheme but seems every FPC developers uses it's own (sometimes even different schemes in one file). Sorry but how should the submitter know which one is the right one to use? You cannot blame others for your fault.

(Personally I prefer a good diff tool over the webjunk, CI per request takes too long for trivial changes. CI is a good principle, but not universal)
Have you ever tried Gitlab WebIDE? It's pretty decent since some releases. I use it a lot to search/read/edit stuff in my company. The Github WebIDE is shit compared with it.
And it doesn't matter how long the CI runs - I'm sure you can also config it to run only tests which might be affected. Computing time doesn't matter and if you run it in parallel it doesn't consume that much time anyway. Its much cheaper than man hours.

Note that those are just fixing of problems of GIT that makes simple patch creation apparently difficult.
Please explain what exactly is so difficult in doing:
  • git clone (or git pull if already cloned master branch)
  • git checkout -b my_new_feature
  • git add -p (even simpler via GUI)
  • git commit
  • git push origin
  • create a merge request

---------

I can understand if young people (students) don't want to work with old methods as they often do it to get some experience which might help them to find a job after graduating. All the leading company's in the digital area don't use ancient methods so where is the benefit of a student to learn long deprecated ways which disappear more and more in all company's? So those people contribute to projects which use modern methods (git, CI, etc).
Just read some job offers for 'newcomers': nobody asks that they knew svn, submitting patches by hand, running ancient computers which appeared before they were born, supporting operating system deprecated a long time ago, ...
So all these people are lost right now.

Handoko

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2020, 05:52:30 pm »
I can understand if young people (students) don't want to work with old methods as they often do it to get some experience which might help them to find a job after graduating.

Sorry if I am wrong. I don't think young students are capable to join in to the developer team. An experience programmer can reach the goal, as long as there is a way to it.

I myself made several attempts to join in the developer team, but I failed. I visited the bugtracker, looking for some bug that seemed easy to me. If I really fixed some bugs, I would contact and request to be a member of the developer team. Unfortunately, I'm not skill enough none of the bugs I can fix. To be a member of the developer team, s/he needs to prove s/he is a capable person.

My 2c
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 06:03:53 pm by Handoko »

asdf1337

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2020, 06:03:30 pm »
I can understand if young people (students) don't want to work with old methods as they often do it to get some experience which might help them to find a job after graduating.

Sorry if I am wrong. I don't think young students are capable to join in to the developer team. An experience programmer can reach the goal, as long as there is a way to it.
Why do you think so? Underestimating young people skills? Thinking that old men are better by law? You don't need to have a degree to be a (good) programmer. The best guys often don't have a degree at all and still fu*k the ones with a degree in all areas. Sometimes because they do it 'by heart' and not money.
Just to name a few: George Hotz, Tavis Ormandy, the guys from LulzSec/Anonymous, people running drugs darknet sites are below 30 (unfortunately they got arrested so you knew the age)

PascalDragon

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Re: The Ranking of Free Pascal in the Tiobe-indexl
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2020, 06:05:25 pm »
Sorry but I really have to disagree with some points. >:D

You can disagree all you want. It's us core devs that need to work with this day in, day out, not you and we have processes that have shown in the past years that they work for us even if they might be "last century" for you.

The more everyone is nagging here I'm inclined to simply stay with SVN for the core repo and keep using git-svn on the client side. ::)

 

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