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Author Topic: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?  (Read 3095 times)

process_1

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2020, 10:47:44 pm »
@process_1: Please stop. I grant that Marco made an opinionated statement, but *YOU* have just dragged the topic into the mud.

Don't be a hypocrite you too!

Marcov reacted as a spoiled infant kid and clearly and shamelessly insults. That is tolerable as he is global moderator and the FPC dev here? I had to react.

You have a "Report to moderator" button, be my guest to report me to him. ;)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 10:51:05 pm by process_1 »

Blade

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2020, 11:16:53 pm »
The main point of Phython, at least from my point of view, is that is interpreter and easy to learn, similar as BASIC was back in the day. With many lib available, it is possible to accomplish almost anything in less steps and on many platforms. Nowadays, it is used in academic circles and universities as a primary language.

Python's unusual rise has a lot to do with the Linux community and distros, as a scripting language that came along at the right time and could be used instead of bash, csh, awk, etc...  It was a "unifier" on that OS.  It then allowed Linux users to bring it along with them, when using computers loaded with Windows.  As the Linux community tended to be tech savvy, they built a lot of libraries.  This appeared to "brew" for a while, then caught on in academic circles and universities.  Its trajectory is unusual, compared to the huge companies that fueled the expansion of the other popular languages, at present.  C was sparked by AT&T/Bell Labs, and lots of heavy hitters along the way.  C# by Microsoft, Java by Sun/Oracle, etc...  JavaScript was made the standard for browsers, so given a monopoly (for the time being).  If you look at the less popular languages, you will often see they weren't as lucky with timing, nor created by or got backing by major corporations. 

Debatably, Python got lucky.  Because in many respects, many other languages could and can take its place, and it's a mess: 

1) Python brings backward compatibility, version madness, and community splits with Python 2 VS Python 3, or even Python 3.5 VS Python 3.8

2) Python indentation burns the eyes and makes many crazy (off-side rule madness)

3) Many aren't fond of Python's pass-by-object-reference; change to the variable changes the reference everywhere, then it's like globals everywhere

4) Python is slower than other languages, and not suited for various tasks

5) No need to declare a variable or function, so mistype a variable name or function, then get an unexpected surprise

6) Variable names can be reused for something with a different type, more unexpected surprises now await

Not saying Python is the worse thing ever, but lets not act like it's for everyone.  Many hate it, many love it.

Pascal is dead long time ago. Even it is used primarily as a language to teach students basics steps in computer science and until Borland, generally it was just a toy. But indeed, since now many programming languages are free of charge, Web oriented and well established, Pascal is pretty much outdated. Delphi as well, I do not see many compaties use it nowadays and offer jobs, at least in my country, except banks...

The argument about jobs is relative.  Because not everybody is/wants to work for a company as a professional programmer.  There are hobbyist, independent software developers, small business owners that create programs for their company, freelancers, students, etc...  Even if the person is/wants to be a professional programmer: A) They can know multiple programming languages.  B) They can find a niche, where they make money.  So if the niche was working for banks, and they got paid well, I'm sure they will be fine.

This bizarre echo chamber to say every language not in the perceived/reported top 10 is "dead", is also ridiculous.  Anybody can search Google, and see people saying Pascal or Delphi is dead, for the last 15 years.  Yet, here we are.  Embarcadero is still making money selling Delphi, and still putting out new releases.  RemObjects is still selling Oxygene.  Free Pascal and Lazarus are still here, with updates.  Yes, I'm sure Microsoft wants people to say every language not C#, is "dead", because they want everyone hooked on their product.  But not everyone loves C#.

And if Object Pascal/Delphi is still being taught in schools around the world (Russia, Brazil, South Africa, Turkey, etc...) then clearly the language is not going to die any time within the next 15 years either. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 11:40:50 pm by Blade »

GAN

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2020, 11:18:59 pm »
I have a question: where is the guy who started this thread?
Because I saw a lot of threads like this and it is always the same movie.
Lazarus 2.0.8 FPC 3.0.4 Linux Mint Mate 19.3
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devEric69

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2020, 11:27:13 pm »
My 2 cents,

You can read the book "Manias, Panics and Crashes", and transpose it to computer languages. Such things also happen in this sector. The crowd is not always right. It self-infers, likes to remain reflective with itself to reassure itself.

Less than 10 years ago "Ruby on rails" was the official successor to Php, at least. Really. Only the last of its "Mohicans" still believe in this, today.

Lazarus has incredible possibilities: reuse code in C (libraries), cross-compile for RaspBerry (access to the electronic world), create interfaces for x11, ... There is only the C that allows this. AFAIK, Python can't.

Quote
I have a question: where is the guy who started this thread?
Because I saw a lot of threads like this and it is always the same movie.
:D :D :D
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 11:29:03 pm by devEric69 »
use: Linux 64 bits (Ubuntu 18.04 LTS).
Lazarus version: 2.0.4 (svn revision: 62502M) compiled with fpc 3.0.4 - fpDebug \ Dwarf3.

MarkMLl

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2020, 11:51:43 pm »
Nobody threw anything which could be interpreted as an insult around until you did. Now please stop.

MarkMLl
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MarkMLl

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2020, 11:57:14 pm »
I have a question: where is the guy who started this thread?
Because I saw a lot of threads like this and it is always the same movie.

But as a fair question it deserves reflection, irrespective of OP's motive.

MarkMLl
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Pet hate: people who boast about the size and sophistication of their computer.

marcov

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2020, 12:22:18 am »
Marco has an M.sc from a prestigious University (Eindhoven) .

Nope I don't. I never finished(I was about 80% through though), instead I got an CS/IT bachelor.
 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 12:24:48 am by marcov »

winni

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2020, 01:03:44 am »
Hi!

Where are you with your discussion?????

I've studied this, I have a bachelor for that, ......

Are we here at the conservative party?
Or the Lehmann Brother Bank????

I've studied my whole live idiots .
That helped a lot .

Winni

ASBzone

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2020, 05:05:02 am »
That's the question.

I interpreted "Lazarus" as "Pascal" so that your question would be easier (more appropriate) to answer.

My 19 year old loves the fact that he doesn't have to think too hard about what he is doing in advance, and so he's happier with a dynamic, interpreted language like python, over a language like Pascal.   (He knows both, but is becoming more proficient in Python due to the above.)

He's also doing a fair bit of AI work and robotics, and feels that there are more ready-made libraries and examples for Python available in these areas as compared to Pascal.

I give him zero points for the first observation, but he does get some points for the second observation.

I also tease him about how all that flexibility burns him as his code grows and gets more complex, but he shrugs it off until he's in need of a troubleshooting session. :)    I also make fun of him for performance of the final code.   And he makes fun of me because he doesn't have to worry about strong typing.

This anecdotal account is statistically invalid, but I suspect that there are similar experiences by enough other people to make it worthwhile to mention.

Popularity is just that, though. 

So, why do you ask?!?
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ASBzone

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2020, 05:11:23 am »
Especially when they see how many bugs fpc/lazarus have. It is hardly usable for professional work.

Have you seen the bugs in Java?  Quantity and severity?
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Lazarus v2.0.11 r63516 / FPC v3.2.1-r46879 (via FpcUpDeluxe) -- Windows 64-bit install w/32-bit cross-compile
Primary System: Windows 10 Pro x64, Version 2004 (Build 19041.508)
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ASBzone

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2020, 05:19:05 am »
Debatably, Python got lucky.  Because in many respects, many other languages could and can take its place, and it's a mess: 

1) Python brings backward compatibility, version madness, and community splits with Python 2 VS Python 3, or even Python 3.5 VS Python 3.8

2) Python indentation burns the eyes and makes many crazy (off-side rule madness)

3) Many aren't fond of Python's pass-by-object-reference; change to the variable changes the reference everywhere, then it's like globals everywhere

4) Python is slower than other languages, and not suited for various tasks

5) No need to declare a variable or function, so mistype a variable name or function, then get an unexpected surprise

6) Variable names can be reused for something with a different type, more unexpected surprises now await

Not saying Python is the worse thing ever, but lets not act like it's for everyone.  Many hate it, many love it.


Good synopsis.   I've been burned (by way of my wayward offspring  :D ) on #2, #5 and #6
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Lazarus v2.0.11 r63516 / FPC v3.2.1-r46879 (via FpcUpDeluxe) -- Windows 64-bit install w/32-bit cross-compile
Primary System: Windows 10 Pro x64, Version 2004 (Build 19041.508)
Other Systems: Windows 10 Pro x64, Version 2004 or greater

440bx

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2020, 07:09:55 am »
Watch your laguage!

You call yourself FPC developer, but you do not know a grasp of computer science, nor you know how to behaves.
Your posts don't set an example in any of those areas. 

I had to react.
Consider learning to react a little better.  You obviously don't have a PhD in Diplomacy/International Relations (consider an introductory course, it would probably be good for you.)

Another thing you should consider, the only thing your last few posts achieve is to make you look bad.

FPC v3.0.4 and Lazarus 1.8.2 on Windows 7 64bit.

MarkMLl

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2020, 11:49:06 am »
@process_1: kindly do not PM me attempting to justify your behaviour.

This was a fairly civil discussion until you chose to lower the tone. I for one do not entirely subscribe to the view that Pascal has a great future ahead of it, however both FPC and Lazarus are useful tools and a number of people have done interesting work exploring how modern extensions such as templates/generics can be incorporated into the overall linguistic framework.

If, as is possible, OP asked his question as part of a sociological experiment, then he has probably noted that it was a single user who caused trouble. I've seen such things happen before.

MarkMLl
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Pet hate: people who boast about the size and sophistication of their computer.

process_1

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2020, 12:29:02 pm »
@process_1: kindly do not PM me attempting to justify your behaviour.

Who are you that I need to justify to you anythingh? I just suggest you to back off from my back and watch your own business!

You are hardly in position to bring any conslusions, so just keep your opinion for yourself, it doesn't matter to me anytihing at all.

Instead, analyze marcov's reactions, behaior and language.

At end, you, and other poltrons here have "Report" and ability to "Ignore" users. Be my guest.




« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 12:34:14 pm by process_1 »

marcov

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2020, 12:42:45 pm »
Less than 10 years ago "Ruby on rails" was the official successor to Php, at least. Really. Only the last of its "Mohicans" still believe in this, today.

That exactly reflects my feeling too.  One should always consider the alternatives at the time, and also their exact incarnation (read: framework), not just the name of the language.


 

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