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Author Topic: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?  (Read 2222 times)

Jvan

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Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« on: August 02, 2020, 03:02:00 am »
That's the question.

jcdammeyer

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2020, 03:48:59 am »
I believe the simple answer is that Python has it's roots in Linux and Linux is still essentially driven by 1970's technology with command lines being used for anything important.  An application that might only run on a graphical user with menu's check boxes and all the other amazing features from Delphi/Lazarus features looks too much like a Windows or Mac application and is disliked with intensity by the Linux community.

The second simple answer is this:  "It's hard to learn something when you don't know you don't know but think you do"  I've never met anyone who can program well in Delphi/Lazarus ever wanting to change to writing in Python.

DanielTimelord

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2020, 07:39:58 am »
That's the question.
Because python is easier and is already a linux-integrated language with many applications and libraries available.
 Python is a very expressive language, that is, you can do a lot in a few lines of code!
 Python is also applied to data science and AI.

MarkMLl

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2020, 10:19:10 am »
First, I'd suggest that that's comparing chalk and cheese: Lazarus is a RAD IDE while Python is a language.

Now considering Pascal vs Python which is far fairer, I'd suggest:

* Pascal has been eclipsed by C-like languages. Regrettably, a whole lot of people base their decision on the fact that { is more concise than begin, and <tab> is less work than either.

* Python is a successor to Perl, which gained a significant following as a pragmatic way of solving problems in part due to its embedded regex facilities.

* Pascal is seen as a "toy" or "teaching" language. This wasn't helped by the way that it was rushed out, and as such didn't learn from the attempts to improve its predecessor ALGOL.

* Delphi/Kylix achieved limited limited Linux/unix penetration. The same applies for just about every RAD tool.

* There are areas where Python is quite simply better thought-out. For example, its handling of the modulus operator: pascal can't "fix" this because of legacy code.

* Again, as a newer language without significant legacy code, Python was able to benefit from some of the better ideas of the last 40 years and avoid some of the pitfalls.

* If OP is intent on Lazarus, a fairer comparison would be between Lazarus and Visual BASIC (including Visual BASIC for DOS), or the various so-called 4GLs including things like Empress which did achieve some unix penetration.

Personally, I loathe Python on account of the whitespace issue and am not trying to defend it. But hopefully the above is fair comment.

MarkMLl

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Thaddy

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2020, 11:25:42 am »
The second simple answer is this:  "It's hard to learn something when you don't know you don't know but think you do"  I've never met anyone who can program well in Delphi/Lazarus ever wanting to change to writing in Python.
Well, there are many on this forum - including me - that are just as proficient in Python as in Object Pascal.
The main difference is that Python is essentially a dynamic language and Object Pascal is essentially a static language.
Most Python libraries are actually written in C, not Python, and you can develop Python libraries with Pascal too.
Most Pascal libraries are actually written in Pascal although there are Python bindings for Pascal to let it work the other way around too.
It is more about choosing the right tool for the job at hand.

(Also: Python is not written in Python but mostly in C, whereas FPC and Lazarus are written in Pascal: demonstrates purpose)
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julkas

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2020, 11:43:54 am »
That's the question.
Another question - "where Pascal is not as popular as Python is?"
Google - "Top Programming Languages by Industry".
Google - "What is the best language for Competitive Programming".
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 12:01:27 pm by julkas »
procedure mulu64(a, b: QWORD; out clo, chi: QWORD); assembler;
asm
  mov rax, a
  mov rdx, b
  mul rdx
  mov [clo], rax
  mov [chi], rdx
end;

Leledumbo

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2020, 11:34:13 pm »
Maybe you want to Google what makes Python suddenly popular after being a lowly looked language for 20 years while Pascal keeps everything steady (well actually it grows though very slowly). Now Google who backs each, you'll find the answer there.

marcov

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2020, 10:33:33 pm »
That's the question.

Low barrier to entry in combination with being in the right place at the right moment to get to be adopted as scripting language in certain Linux distros.

That makes it easy to start on both the subject matter, and the availability.

I've spend the last week involuntarily messing with Python, and I fail to see an attraction in the language itself. In general, language popularity rarely is.

But if you have a time machine, just go back to 1969, and convince Ken Thompson c.s. to use Pascal for Unix development.

Blade

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2020, 02:19:41 am »
As noted, it's really Object Pascal VS Python or like the Lazarus IDE VS the PyCharm IDE.  However, this type of confusion, where people refer to the IDE instead of the programming language seems emblematic with Object Pascal.  There appears not enough marketing or publicity to pierce the mind share of the general public, or even the programming community.  Way too many times, I have seen even programmers refer to the Object Pascal language as Delphi, or be clueless that Pascal evolved into Object Pascal.  Their only recollection of Pascal being Turbo Pascal and some high school or college classes using it in the 1980s. 

Part of this issue of public mind share, appears to also come from having large company or OS backing.  Java had/has Sun/Oracle, C# has Microsoft, Python has the Linux community and distros, etc...  Swift is debatably popular because Apple pushes it very hard.  Object Pascal doesn't have heavyweights on this level behind it, so it has to grow from a more grassroots perspective.  There is of course Borland/Embarcadero (Delphi), but they weren't/aren't on the same level as the other companies mentioned.  Embarcadero tends to fumble a lot, like Borland before it, and seems to put greed before long term planning.  I could also see Embarcadero/Idera disastrously dropping Delphi, even now, and pushing Java or C++ products if thought they could get away with it or make an extra dollar.

As for the popularity of Object Pascal, I think it is being used more than people think.  There are a lot of dialects, compilers, and IDEs floating around.  Many schools throughout the world are teaching Pascal/Object Pascal or using Delphi.  Let's not forget Embarcadero's deal with Turkey, where they sold over a million licenses to their school system.  I think that in the United States, Object Pascal gets pushed to the side, because you have large American companies pushing their favorite programming language and trying to convince everyone that all other languages are "dead".

Lastly, it does seem that those using Object Pascal are a bit quiet for competitive reasons.  Seems like they don't want people to know their secret sauce, and rather people bang their heads against the wall using Java or Python.  I think a significant number of people, if they were clearly aware that Pascal became Object Pascal and what it can do, would switch over.  But, the key is public awareness.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 02:22:30 am by Blade »

dbannon

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2020, 02:39:13 am »
As noted, it's really Object Pascal VS Python or like the Lazarus IDE VS the PyCharm IDE.  However, this type of confusion, where people refer to the IDE instead of the programming language seems emblematic with Object Pascal.  .....

Yes, I agree. I consider my app is written in Lazarus, in fact its written in Object Pascal and linked to LCL. When I say "Lazarus" do I mean the IDE or the Lazarus Component Library ?    I am currently working on getting the app into Debian and Ubuntu repositories, I say, in the control file, that its dependent on FPC and Lazarus.  Of course I mean LCL but the way to get LCL available is to install Lazarus.

Its a technical issue, I doubt its much of a barrier to people adopting Object Pascal but it does cause some confusion.  Maybe the real barrier is that "Object Pascal" is too long ?  4 syllables.  C, Go, C#, Python, Java, Ada .... are all one or two syllables ?  Is that what we have been missing all along ?

:-)

Davo 
Lazarus 2, Linux (and reluctantly Win10, OSX)
My Project - https://github.com/tomboy-notes/tomboy-ng

jcdammeyer

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2020, 04:21:34 am »
Having a an 8" Turbo Pascal for CP/M disk in storage I can say I've been using Pascal for a few years.  I've also, in University, had to use APL, Algol-W, Algol-68, LISP, Fortran, SNOBOL, COBOL, C. UBC-Pascal and a wide variety of assemblers. 
Outside of school a few other custom languages for databases but lately mostly C, Delphi, and Assembler.  I tried to use Python on a Raspberry Pi project that interfaced to a PIC32 via SPI bus.  Had to scrap it and rewrite in C.  Python just isn't fast enough.

Now I'm doing a project that is similar to one I did in Delphi but I've chosen Lazarus so it can compile and run on a wide variety of platforms.  Mostly because so far RAD Studio and their Firemonkey doesn't address Linux and the Pi/Beagle.

And the latest version of RAD Studio 10.4 now must have WIN-10.  So I bought a new HP Laptop that has WIN-10 since I still have clients and one year of support left. 

And although Lazarus is slow compared to Delphi on the same hardware, the portability is nice.  Although even that's turning out to be a bit of a myth with font sizes and some other things that don't work on Pi/Beagle like they do in WIN-7/10

But mostly Python for Linux is fundamentally still a command line oriented development environment.  Python on all the little Arduino type modules all use a command line and then a GK or other graphics library. 

Delphi/Lazarus is just really a well kept secret.  And I met one guy who emphatically said he wasn't interested in Delphi because it didn't do anything good for his CV.

MarkMLl

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2020, 10:02:37 am »
But mostly Python for Linux is fundamentally still a command line oriented development environment.  Python on all the little Arduino type modules all use a command line and then a GK or other graphics library. 

Delphi/Lazarus is just really a well kept secret.  And I met one guy who emphatically said he wasn't interested in Delphi because it didn't do anything good for his CV.

Let's face it, almost everything is a commandline environment compared with VB, Delphi and Pascal.

MarkMLl
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BeniBela

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2020, 01:12:15 pm »
Delphi is not as popular, because it is not free and was too expensive

Lazarus is not as popular, because the  companies use Delphi anyways.  Especially when they see how many bugs fpc/lazarus have. It is hardly usable for professional work.

ntu repositories, I say, in the control file, that its dependent on FPC and Lazarus.  Of course I mean LCL but the way to get LCL available is to install Lazarus.


I have tried to submit my app somewhere and it was rejected because of this. "We only add it, if we can compile it ourselves on our build server", "We cannot install an IDE on our server. Lazarus is an IDE. Make a version without Lazarus"

dbannon

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2020, 01:45:13 pm »


> in the control file, that its dependent on FPC and Lazarus.  Of course I mean LCL but the way to get LCL available is to install Lazarus.

I have tried to submit my app somewhere and it was rejected because of this. "We only add it, if we can compile it ourselves on our build server", "We cannot install an IDE on our server. Lazarus is an IDE. Make a version without Lazarus"

Its easy to build a 'Lazarus' app on the auto build server of, for example Ubuntu.  In the control file, you specify the build environment separately from the run environment.  So, if you say that the build needs fpc >=3.0.4 and Lazarus >=2.0.6 and target Focal, then the build server first installed those things from its own (official or PPA) repositories and runs your build command.  I would prefer to have a later Lazarus but its not available, I make sure my app does things that need 2.0.8 inside some ifdef braces.

Search the Ubuntu PPA for tomboy-ng and you will see my early attempts !  See the link below to my github repo, in the debian directory is a working control file. 

I actually build with a script that uses lazbuild to compile a dependency package and calls fpc directly to compile the actual app itself.

I am in discussion with debian, we have some issues but it does not relate in any way to not wanting to compile with fpc.

Davo
Lazarus 2, Linux (and reluctantly Win10, OSX)
My Project - https://github.com/tomboy-notes/tomboy-ng

MarkMLl

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Re: Why Lazarus is not as popular as python is?
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2020, 01:46:15 pm »
I have tried to submit my app somewhere and it was rejected because of this. "We only add it, if we can compile it ourselves on our build server", "We cannot install an IDE on our server. Lazarus is an IDE. Make a version without Lazarus"

Is there an equivalent to  make bigide  which builds the entire LCL etc. plus  lazbuild  i.e. without the IDE? Because that's what should be being exposed to the various repos that take that attitude.

MarkMLl
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Pet hate: people who boast about the size and sophistication of their computer.

 

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