Apple leaving Intel for ARM - how will it affect Lazarus/FPC/Cocoa?

[ASBzone]

Don't be shy to ask money.

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Well played...   

[dbannon]

.....
You are aware that FPC already supports iPad and iPhone? ....

No, I am not aware of that. I just searched the wiki for iPad, closest I can get is a page on Smartphones, last updated in 2013.  I assume you said "FPC" and not "FPc / Lazarus" with good reason.

Considering that people started to run macOS on non-Apple hardware with the advent of the x86 version I'm rather sure that we'll see people trying to get it running on the Pi as well (after all people did the same with the Windows on ARM64 which does not officially support the Pi or the various phones out there )

I am not so interested in running  MacOS on a Pi, why would you ?  License issues if nothing else.   But an opportunity to  extend FPC AND Lazarus (or at least LCL) to the iPads is interesting.

I am glad the "wise ones" are already looking at this, I would be happy to make a small financial contribution if there is a plan put together to fund some hardware (skalogryz has a pretty good recent track record with Cocoa IMHO).

Trying not to sound too dramatic, we should consider this a bit of a turning point for Lazarus/LCL.  What happens now will determine if Lazarus is really a cross platform application in a two years time.

Davo

[trev]

Main point is a development machine to test the port on.

If "we" qualify for a dev machine I'll happily contribute to the $500 for the machine Dev Kit.

I'll happily put up $A 73 ($US 50) towards this if needed.

[Handoko]

Please support me on Patreon!

Ask by a senior fellow, of course we should support.

Due to the corona my income is greatly reduced, is there a one time payment only? I am okay to donate U$ 25, I have Paypal account.

[skalogryz]

Ask by a senior fellow, of course we should support.

Due to the corona my income is greatly reduced, is there a one time payment only?

Don't feel obliged!
Corona affected many people economically.

Also, if you don't use Cocoa widgetset, then you don't have any reasons to provide patronage

[JdeHaan]

Hi Skalogryz,
I just became patron for 5/month. I know it's far from being enough, but hope it helps.

Best,
jdehaan

[PascalDragon]

.....
You are aware that FPC already supports iPad and iPhone? ....

No, I am not aware of that. I just searched the wiki for iPad, closest I can get is a page on Smartphones, last updated in 2013.  I assume you said "FPC" and not "FPc / Lazarus" with good reason.

You need to look for iOS which is the name of the operating system running on both iPhone and iPad. And Lazarus also supports development for iOS, though this does not mean that the LCL can be used. Mobile development (both Android and iOS) is a bit problematic with the LCL and could definitely be improved.

Considering that people started to run macOS on non-Apple hardware with the advent of the x86 version I'm rather sure that we'll see people trying to get it running on the Pi as well (after all people did the same with the Windows on ARM64 which does not officially support the Pi or the various phones out there )

I am not so interested in running  MacOS on a Pi, why would you ?  License issues if nothing else.

That was mainly a reply to the comment by marcov. And licensing issues didn't stop people from creating Hackintosh where they run macOS on non-Apple hardware which probably isn't really covered by the licenses either...

Trying not to sound too dramatic, we should consider this a bit of a turning point for Lazarus/LCL.  What happens now will determine if Lazarus is really a cross platform application in a two years time.

That definitely sounds too dramatic. First of it will be rather easy to port FPC to macOS on ARM, because both the code generator backend for Aarch64 and the operating system code for Darwin are already there (after all we support Mac OS X in both its PowerPC and Intel variants). And second the cross platform capability is more demonstrated by completely new targets. E.g. the MUI widgetset which added the ability for LCL applications to run on Amiga.

[dbannon]

You need to look for iOS which is the name of the operating system running on both iPhone and iPad. And Lazarus also supports development for iOS, though this does not mean that the LCL can be used. Mobile development (both Android and iOS) is a bit problematic with the LCL and could definitely be improved.

Trying not to sound too dramatic, we should consider this a bit of a turning point for Lazarus/LCL.  What happens now will determine if Lazarus is really a cross platform application in a two years time.

That definitely sounds too dramatic. First of it will be rather easy to port FPC to macOS on ARM, because both the code generator backend for Aarch64 and the operating system code for Darwin are already there (after all we support Mac OS X in both its PowerPC and Intel variants). And second the cross platform capability is more demonstrated by completely new targets. E.g. the MUI widgetset which added the ability for LCL applications to run on Amiga.

Hmm, thanks PascalDragon. I looked at the iOS page you mention and, sorry, if that is what we will be offering Mac users in two years time, "Cross Platform" could be a bit of a stretch.

Certainly no disrespect to FPC but Lazarus and LCL need to be there too.  I guess the GUI API will be based, to some degree on Cocoa, maybe it will be as easy as you say. Lets hope so.

I wonder if there will emulators of some sort available ?  That may allow a number of Lazarus users to contribute ....

Davo

[skalogryz]

I just became patron for 5/month. I know it's far from being enough, but hope it helps.

much appreciated! thank you!

[PascalDragon]

Hmm, thanks PascalDragon. I looked at the iOS page you mention and, sorry, if that is what we will be offering Mac users in two years time, "Cross Platform" could be a bit of a stretch.

Certainly no disrespect to FPC but Lazarus and LCL need to be there too.

Well, you can contribute to get the LCL working on iOS as well. If not one has interest on working on it, then it won't be done.

I guess the GUI API will be based, to some degree on Cocoa, maybe it will be as easy as you say. Lets hope so.

macOS for ARM will simply be Apple's x86 macOS just compiled for ARM. So of course it will be Cocoa, cause all macOS applications use Cocoa nowadays. Even Apple isn't that suicidal to implement a new UI toolkit in the same go.

I wonder if there will emulators of some sort available ?  That may allow a number of Lazarus users to contribute ....

We're talking about Apple here. Either you have the hardware or you don't. (The iOS simulator doesn't count, because that is running x86 code)

[Jonas Maebe]

macOS for ARM will simply be Apple's x86 macOS just compiled for ARM. So of course it will be Cocoa, cause all macOS applications use Cocoa nowadays. Even Apple isn't that suicidal to implement a new UI toolkit in the same go.

In fact, Apple is promoting the fact that applications using only high-level code can be recompiled and will just work: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10214/

[dbannon]

macOS for ARM will simply be Apple's x86 macOS just compiled for ARM. So of course it will be Cocoa, cause all macOS applications use Cocoa nowadays. Even Apple isn't that suicidal to implement a new UI toolkit in the same go.

In fact, Apple is promoting the fact that applications using only high-level code can be recompiled and will just work: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10214/

I am guessing that "will just work" will be with their compiler, they will have put a lot of man hours into that part of the compiler before the announcement and will have a team standing by to address any problems. Sadly, they won' be submitting patches to (our) Mantis, thats our problem to solve.....

Davo

[trev]

The good news is that with macOS 11.0 Big Sur beta in a Parallels VM on an Intel Mac mini with Xcode 12 beta, Command line tools 12 beta, FPC 3.0.4 and Lazarus 2.0.8, everything continues to work

There is one warning: "ld: warning: building for macOS 10.5 is deprecated".

Pretty pic attached.

[Updated]
FPC 3.2.0 (with one line patch from https://bugs.freepascal.org/view.php?id=37181) + Lazarus 2.0.8 also works.
[/Updated]

[Jonas Maebe]

In fact, Apple is promoting the fact that applications using only high-level code can be recompiled and will just work: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10214/

I am guessing that "will just work" will be with their compiler, they will have put a lot of man hours into that part of the compiler before the announcement and will have a team standing by to address any problems. Sadly, they won' be submitting patches to (our) Mantis, thats our problem to solve.....

I'm not saying we don't have to do anything. I'm saying that the notion that we may have to heavily change the existing Cocoa headers or the LCL is wrong. If that were the case, then no amount of compiler tweaking on Apple's part would allow developers to simply recompile existing Objective-C/Cocoa applications. macOS 10.16/11 still uses Cocoa like previous Mac OS X/OS X/macOS versions.

[dbannon]

Getting back to the topic of trying to get skalogryz's (for eg) hands on some hardware suitable to get us working Raspberry Mac.

From previous posts, it sounds to my (very uneducated) ear that work will need to be done on FPC and Lazarus. skalogryz, does that sound like you ?

I suggest funding this "one off" hardware is not the same as a monthly Patreon, need to hit that US$500 quite quickly, my guess is the programme will be over subscribed so we need to get in quickly. 

Ideas ?

Davo