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Author Topic: Embedded designer  (Read 23315 times)

MacWomble

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2020, 07:17:14 am »
I just read the PL EULA. It appears to be a collection of cuts and pastes from other software licenses with PL interpolations and does not actually make a lot of sense especially in certain places. Whether it is even legally enforceable is debatable.

The clause on reverse engineering made me laugh the most :)


This is what I thought when reading their license. Some points where not clear for me.
After asking them some unclear points of the license they blocked my account.

So never ask someone at PL about license issues ...

And as they don't use an impressum or other information you have to guess who they are. This is not serious for a company, as they pretend to be.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 07:19:56 am by MacWomble »
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balazsszekely

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2020, 07:24:57 am »
Guys,

Did you read my first post? This thread is not about licensing or CT. Please create a blogpost and take all the drama there.

hnb

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2020, 07:40:20 am »
You can find the src for the sparta docked form designer at https://svn.freepascal.org/svn/lazarus/trunk/components/sparta/dockedformeditor/ which compiles with Lazarus SVN trunk, but it has various focus and redraw issues at runtime now, for example see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPHYc9eYbNI

seems that Sparta still has some fans and potential contributors ;), worth to mention that the most usefully parts of Sparta are not ported yet to Lazarus trunk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aUf7hhgwwI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FOjWCLDScQ

it was open sourced ( https://github.com/dathox/freesparta ) as :

2_spartaStarter
3_spartaProfessional
Checkout NewPascal initiative and donate beer - ready to use tuned FPC compiler + Lazarus for mORMot project

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marcov

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #48 on: March 11, 2020, 09:07:02 am »
First of all, I understand the feelings of most of the people and their reaction but it is not time to over react or allow emotions to overwhelm our decision process.
the lazarus IDE has 2 licenses. GPL and LGPL with extension. the intf part of the IDE is under lgpl with extension to allow for commercial/closed source addins to be written. Having said that the extension only allows non lgpl code to use it not change it. which means that if

Afaik some lazarus devels had a look at it, and the code is directly plugged into the IDE. The intf exception doesn't hold.

AFFRIZA 亜風実

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2020, 09:50:51 am »
Guys,

Did you read my first post? This thread is not about licensing or CT. Please create a blogpost and take all the drama there.

Like I said before, rather than backporting PL's package which is totally disgracing the community, better use KZDesktop name because that's the original package. By adding CT itself to the topic, answers about license will unavoidable. And, we need to understand why Lazarus using that and this license, because we're living in the opensource world, and licensing is important.

And, we need to make a clear and distinguish how Lazarus community and PL (pirate logic) community works. That's why there are contributor sections in the Lazarus's about form. Why the heck Lazarus need to included a package that already removed the original author's credits by PL.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 10:09:21 am by Dio Affriza »
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PascalDragon

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2020, 10:12:28 am »
Did you read my first post? This thread is not about licensing or CT. Please create a blogpost and take all the drama there.

As Dio Affriza wrote, you made it about licensing by using code from CT. This is/was inevitable.

You can find the src for the sparta docked form designer at https://svn.freepascal.org/svn/lazarus/trunk/components/sparta/dockedformeditor/ which compiles with Lazarus SVN trunk, but it has various focus and redraw issues at runtime now, for example see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPHYc9eYbNI

seems that Sparta still has some fans and potential contributors ;), worth to mention that the most usefully parts of Sparta are not ported yet to Lazarus trunk:

You're alive! :D I had already wondered about that...

Well, you could look at the issues that Sparta's docked form editor currently has, then another docked editor might not be required...

JuhaManninen

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2020, 11:07:39 am »
No Sir
it's NOT GPL licensed
Sternas, they are GPL licensed because they are part of your Lazarus fork which is GPL licensed.
That is how GPL works.
Please note that copying your improved GPL code is not a hostile act in any way. The whole essence of FOSS development is to copy, modify and spread other people's code. You have done it and I appreciate it. Yes, I feel honored that my GPL code has been worth copying. I hope you feel honored that your GPL embedded designer was worth copying for us.

Please remember that none of Lazarus core developers have attacked your project. It was done by other people. Some of them gave an impression they represent Lazarus project, which was a nasty and ugly thing to do.
When the heat was on a few years ago, I studied both (L)GPL and your forked code. I didn't find any license violations, except for a minor forgotten license header from new files(*).
You had removed author info from some packages but most of them are fixed AFAIK.
Author information is not required or even mentioned in GPL. Thus removing it is not a license violation but it violates copyright rules.
Still I feel the whole mudslinging went totally out of proportions.

Everybody please try to understand what a FOSS license GPL is about.
The license encourages to copy, modify and spread code. It has two essential rules:
1. Modified source code must be published somehow when binaries built from it are delivered.
2. The license of the modified source code must remain the same GPL.

Pilot Logic has followed those license rules (except the minor header omissions*).

(*) Sternas, GPL requires the license header in every source file.
You had forgotten it from the embedded designer files, thus they were added to the Lazarus copy.
No big deal, I have forgotten those headers many times from new files. I have added them only later.
Mostly Lazarus trunk and FPC 3.2 on Manjaro Linux 64-bit.

balazsszekely

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2020, 11:22:22 am »
@Dio Affriza
Quote
Like I said before, rather than backporting PL's package which is totally disgracing the community
Why is disgracing if we backport something good and functional and the gpl license allow us?

Quote
because we're living in the opensource world, and licensing is important.
Agreed. Did we break some rules, that I'm not aware of? I' m talking about real license rules, note some imagined moral rules. If yes then we must remove the embedded desinger.

Quote
Better use KZDesktop name because that's the original package.
Ok. If you're 100% sure that KZDesktop was the original package, I will mention it in my original post. I can even inlcude it in the Lazarus source files description.

PS: Idealy Sparta should be fixed, but Maciej does not have the time. @Dio are you willing to invest some of your free free time to fix sparta?


AFFRIZA 亜風実

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2020, 11:43:22 am »
Quote
Did we break some rules, that I'm not aware of? I' m talking about real license rules, note some imagined moral rules. If yes then we must remove the embedded desinger.
The original headers all removed, that I think it's a violation, and the author attribution, I don't understand why it removed, and in my point of view, that's not good, it's a copyright violation. I won't care if it will be available by using OPM and installed by the user's own, but bundled with Lazarus, really?

Quote
Ok. If you're 100% sure that KZDesktop was the original package, I will mention it in my original post. I can even inlcude it in the Lazarus source files description.
I'm pretty sure because I am using an early CT before. It may be heavily modified and the whole units renamed, who knows.

Quote
PS: Idealy Sparta should be fixed, but Maciej does not have the time. @Dio are you willing to invest some of your free free time to fix sparta?
I'm quite satisfied with Sparta and Lazarus 2.0.6. I'm not sure about the trunk version, I'll check it later.

PS: I think I already asking before, back in 2013 to make KZDesktop included in Lazarus in this forum, and nobody cares. Always same answer, "use F12 blablabla", until it's too late and copied by PL and the KZDesktop developer not maintain it anymore. There's no wonder people are dissapointed with this forum. Horribly too late. I'm so mad that time, I don't even want to open this forum until 2017.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 01:15:18 pm by Dio Affriza »
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mercurhyo

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2020, 11:48:10 am »
huh ... relax
I'm no lawyer but "common sense" told me that if someone uses 97% of my code with my permission and THEN plays Commando by prohi.. biting me to use back his 3%, I wouldn't be in a wonderful mood!

PL ==> Better to cool off, and find a friendly path, before a K-boum in a Legal court!  8-)

Lemme get a beer and see  :P  :D
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 11:55:16 am by mercurhyo »
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Handoko

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2020, 11:59:39 am »
The original headers all removed, that I think it's a violation, and the author attribution, I don't understand why it removed, and in my point of view, that's not good, it's a copyright violation.

I am not sure removing headers is allowed or not but I heard crediting the (original) author is required in GPL:

Quote
... DR DOS, Inc. failed to comply with the GNU General Public License (GPL) by not crediting the FreeDOS utilities to their authors and including the source code.[87] After complaints from FreeDOS developers (including the suggestion to provide the source code, and hence comply with the GPL), DR DOS, Inc. instead withdrew version 8.1, and also the unaffected 8.0, from its website.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-DOS#Controversies

Thaddy

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2020, 12:30:12 pm »
removing headers is a GPL violation indeed, but only if it is distributed without the original headers or GPL reference.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 12:36:43 pm by Thaddy »
Specialize a type, not a var.

JuhaManninen

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2020, 03:52:50 pm »
The original headers all removed, that I think it's a violation, and the author attribution, I don't understand why it removed, and in my point of view, that's not good, it's a copyright violation.
Which all headers were removed?
In my understanding license headers were added because they were missing.
Mostly Lazarus trunk and FPC 3.2 on Manjaro Linux 64-bit.

JuhaManninen

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2020, 04:00:26 pm »
I am not sure removing headers is allowed or not but I heard crediting the (original) author is required in GPL:

Quote
... DR DOS, Inc. failed to comply with the GNU General Public License (GPL) by not crediting the FreeDOS utilities to their authors and including the source code.[87] After complaints from FreeDOS developers (including the suggestion to provide the source code, and hence comply with the GPL), DR DOS, Inc. instead withdrew version 8.1, and also the unaffected 8.0, from its website.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DR-DOS#Controversies
That is false information! Please read the license carefully. It does not even mention author information.
Copyright rules are separate from the license.
Providing the source code is an essential license requirement obviously.

[Edit] Ok, I only remembered the missing author info in the license.
It does mention "copyright" many times, which always includes the copyright holder (often the author).
It mentions copyright law and sentences like:
 "... on each copy an appropriate copyright notice".
Source :
 https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html
Maybe I should read it again. It was some years ago.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 04:21:57 pm by JuhaManninen »
Mostly Lazarus trunk and FPC 3.2 on Manjaro Linux 64-bit.

Handoko

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Re: Embedded designer
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2020, 05:27:25 pm »
As I'm a programmer not lawyer, I care more about the development progress of this embedded designer, it's looks interesting and I may use it when it is ready.

For those who are interested in 'did they violate license terms', I suggest you try to consult with gpl-violations.org, they understand GPL better than us. They can give you better understanding and even assist copyright holder taking action against the GPL violator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gpl-violations.org

 

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