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Author Topic: New User Portal for the Wiki  (Read 6703 times)

Zoran

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2020, 06:10:04 pm »
Near the bottom of the new main page, on the left side under Free Pascal, there is a link to "Object Pascal Tutorial".

However, although well written, this is a very basic procedural Pascal Tutorial. Absolutely not a word about classes or objects.

In my opinion, the link on the main page should be renamed to "Basic tutorial", and then there can be added another link to Object oriented Pascal.

1. Think of new users who want to start learning programming -- they need the basic tutorial, and they should not be distracted with misleading name (actually, the tutorial itself should be renamed, but at least a link on main page should not call it so).

2. Think of experienced programmers coming to Pascal from other languages. They already know what classes/objects are, and they want to learn how to do them in Pascal -- what they expect to get when click on link named "Object Pascal tutorial"?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 06:12:28 pm by Zoran »

Zoran

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2020, 06:30:32 pm »
And another thing -- on both sides (Free Pascal and Lazarus), there are "Community participation" sections.

In my opinion, links to forum should be put on top, before mailing list (I think that most new users will rather choose forum than mailing lists).

And those links are now called "Free Pascal Forums" and "Lazarus Forums".
However, both links point to same forum. Therefore, I think it is better to rename both links to "FPC/Lazarus forum".

trev

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2020, 02:27:32 am »
Thanks for your very helpful feedback Zoran.

I have:

* Fixed the link name for the "Object Pascal Tutorial" to the more accurate "Basic Pascal Tutorial" on both the main page and the New User Portal page.

* Added the "Object Pascal Tutorial" as suggested to the main page.

I will fix the Wiki page/title names for the "Object Pascal Tutorial" across the multiple languages to match the above when I get time (there's about 40 odd links across the Wiki to be fixed).

As for the Forums:

* There are advocates for both mailing lists and forums. They are short lists, and I don't think the order will have any significant deleterious effect on which people choose to use.

* The Wiki main page needed to serve two projects without unnecessary duplication. This was the reason for the vertical column separation of Free Pascal and Lazarus which found favour with both projects. Despite ending up in the same place, there are distinct Free Pascal vs Lazarus forums.  I think the naming of the forum links is justified.
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Martin_fr

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2020, 12:54:25 pm »
Please ensure image changes go to any translated version too. (The German main page is up to date / others are still in the old format)

For text changes, I am not sure how best to ensure that they will find their way into translations.

Zoran

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2020, 03:38:10 pm »
Thank you.

As for the Forums:

* There are advocates for both mailing lists and forums. They are short lists, and I don't think the order will have any significant deleterious effect on which people choose to use.

Although the truth is that most of fpc core developers prefer mailing list to forum, the forum is much easier to start with, so it will always be preferred by newcommers.

As I see it, the main purpose of new first page is to be more attractive to new people, so giving them the easiest first should be the objective.

If nothing else, forum can be searched and read without registering. That alone says all.


* The Wiki main page needed to serve two projects without unnecessary duplication. This was the reason for the vertical column separation of Free Pascal and Lazarus which found favour with both projects. Despite ending up in the same place, there are distinct Free Pascal vs Lazarus forums.  I think the naming of the forum links is justified.

Okay.

Martin_fr

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2020, 03:58:41 pm »
As I see it, the main purpose of new first page is to be more attractive to new people, so giving them the easiest first should be the objective.
I do really hope it is more attractive to *all* users.

I have no idea, how many new users land on the wiki, before any other page.
If I google "Pascal" the first result related to Fpc/Lazarus is https://www.freepascal.org/ (which is 5th in the list). So not the wiki.
Then next a bit further down is the Lazarus homepage.

Quote
If nothing else, forum can be searched and read without registering. That alone says all.

So can the mail list (search for "release" on google)
Code: Text  [Select][+][-]
  1. site:lists.lazarus-ide.org release

Zoran

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2020, 04:11:55 pm »
As I see it, the main purpose of new first page is to be more attractive to new people, so giving them the easiest first should be the objective.
I do really hope it is more attractive to *all* users.

I have no idea, how many new users land on the wiki, before any other page.
If I google "Pascal" the first result related to Fpc/Lazarus is https://www.freepascal.org/ (which is 5th in the list). So not the wiki.
Then next a bit further down is the Lazarus homepage.

Quote
If nothing else, forum can be searched and read without registering. That alone says all.

So can the mail list (search for "release" on google)
Code: Text  [Select][+][-]
  1. site:lists.lazarus-ide.org release

I still think that for most new users forum is much easier to start with.
Perhaps I am just wrong. Anyway, I have no more arguments to add.

Martin_fr

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2020, 04:39:20 pm »

I still think that for most new users forum is much easier to start with.

I did not at all dispute that. But to be clear, let me say: I do agree with that.

I do however wonder, if the order on the wiki (and I do not actually mind if that order were changed) will have any impact on (most) new users.

New users will probably only land on the wiki *after* they already were on one of the other sites. Maybe (I do not know, therefore "maybe") for many it will be the forum that gets them to the wiki? For those getting from the forum to the wiki, alternatives to the forum are of higher interest. (not meant as an argument, just a thought)

Anyway as I (now) said: I have no preference to the order.
I merely do wish to point out, that so far if there is any "desired" order, it is up to personal preference. I believe the argument (based on new users) - made for one order over the other - is void. (Including arguing for the current order)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 04:56:49 pm by Martin_fr »

440bx

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2020, 05:49:39 pm »
... for many it will be the forum that gets them to the wiki? For those getting from the forum to the wiki, alternatives to the forum are of higher interest. (not meant as an argument, just a thought)
I can say that was my experience.  The wiki has a lot of great information but, it is the experienced forum users that can, and do, pinpoint those parts of the wiki that address the user's concerns or interests.

I know I got useful information about GDB and, debugging with Lazarus in general, from some wiki article(s) you mentioned.  I also got very useful information about how to use FPC to create native Windows applications from PascalDragon.  The wiki is a great thing to have but, without knowledgeable users about it, its accessibility (in terms of learning what is of interest in there) would be significantly lower.

I strongly suspect you are right, that it is through the forum that users learn about the parts of the wiki that are of interest to them.

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Zoran

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2020, 06:45:13 pm »
In the introduction, near the top of the page, above the FPC-Lazarus tables, the last sentence says (bolded by me):
Quote
If you have any Wiki-related problems, leave a note or suggestion on the Site Feedback page or make a post in this Forum.

The forum link leads to Other subforum.

Perhaps better would be to link to Documentation subforum?

trev

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2020, 01:36:04 am »
Other vs Documentation

This Documentation subforum has a sticky post which states:

Quote
Please put documentation mutations, enhancements and errors in Mantis bugtracker, this group is for documenters  to talk over documentation and its tools.

which is why I chose the Other subforum.

The Other subforum has also been where I've posted problems with the Wiki and where I have generally had a response when the Wiki Feedback page has failed to attract attention.
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trev

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2020, 01:49:54 am »
Please ensure image changes go to any translated version too. (The German main page is up to date / others are still in the old format)

I was aware that the German and Russian new translated main pages were updated or I would have done it myself the next day.

Quote
For text changes, I am not sure how best to ensure that they will find their way into translations.

Indeed, it is unfortunate that many of the translations of many Wiki pages are out of date. My only suggestion for that would be to abolish them and rely on Google Translate, but I'm not sure how well that works out in practice as I only know a little German and a little French. I generally try to write non-colloquial, simple English in the Wiki to aid in understanding by those for whom English is not their first language and for possible translation. I may not always succeed and I sometimes forget to do so.
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Otto

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2020, 09:26:15 am »
Hi Trev.
I understand and share your opinion.
In these days I have been very busy, but soon I will update the page in Italian. As I have already done, I can assist in the preparation of the page layout for Spanish and other languages of Latin origin, provided that some native speakers then correct any errors.

In addition to this I would have an idea originated from the fact that automatic translation (especially "Google Translate") has not always produced optimal results.
The idea would be that I could translate the page from Italian into Esperanto. Once the page is finished I could present it to the international Esperanto community. In this way we can ask for advice for translations into the various national languages spoken by users of the Esperanto community.

By doing this we could help spread both FPC/Lazarus and Esperanto. In the worst case Otto, my digital Avatar name, would make a further gaffe (bad impression), also because I know little about Esperanto.

It might seem like a crazy idea, but it could also work. What is your opinion about it?

Adiaŭ  (Goodbye )
Otto.
Kind regards.

PascalDragon

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2020, 12:42:20 pm »
I also got very useful information about how to use FPC to create native Windows applications from PascalDragon.

Good to know that I'm helpful to you here and then. :P

440bx

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Re: New User Portal for the Wiki
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2020, 12:51:30 pm »
Good to know that I'm helpful to you here and then. :P
We don't agree very often but, there is always much to appreciate about someone knowledgeable and, do me a favor, don't argue with me about that. ;)
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