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Author Topic: Features for money ?  (Read 3460 times)

440bx

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Features for money ?
« on: June 28, 2019, 11:48:13 pm »
I was reading about the FPC foundation in another thread and, reading about it gave me the following idea:

What if an individual or group of individuals (FPC/Pascal programmers) were to offer to pay the developers, not a foundation but those who are actually actively developing the compiler, for the implementation of a particular feature ?

Of course, something like that would require a method in place to make it work but, it seems doable.

This might attract additional compiler writers to participate in the development of FPC. 

What do you think ?

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Zoran

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2019, 11:56:00 pm »
There is the wiki page where you can offer money for implementing a feature you need.

Akira1364

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2019, 12:05:19 am »
I don't think this would help very much, unfortunately. It's become clear to me while observing the bugtracker recently that even if someone can actually implement a new working feature by themselves, if the "core" developers decide that they don't like it for whatever reason, it will just sit there in limbo forever without being merged.

You'd have to have some kind of fork that had more active interest in merging new functionality for this to be a useful concept, I think.

That said, paying for specific bugs to be fixed might have some benefit in the "main" FPC trunk.

440bx

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2019, 12:07:36 am »
There is the wiki page where you can offer money for implementing a feature you need.
Thank you for pointing that out.

I had compiler features in mind, where not just one person would offer a "reward" for its implementation but, anyone who is interested in seeing the feature implemented, could add their name to list along with the additional amount they are willing to add to the "pot".

The reward a group of people can offer for a particular feature will usually be greater than what one individual can offer.

That's the part I have not seen, a way for a group of people to pool their "reward" for a particular feature they desire.


ETA:

It's become clear to me while observing the bugtracker recently that even if someone can actually implement a new working feature by themselves, if the "core" developers decide that they don't like it for whatever reason, it will just sit there in limbo forever without being merged.
I have observed that too.

You'd have to have some kind of fork that had more active interest in merging new functionality for this to be a useful concept, I think.
I agree. 


That said, paying for specific bugs to be fixed might have some benefit in the "main" FPC trunk.
I am not fond of that idea.  I believe it is a matter of personal pride for a programmer to fix bugs in his software.  I am not comfortable with the idea of offering a reward for just fixing bugs. That's just my personal feeling about it, I certainly wouldn't be against the practice if other people wanted to have it.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 12:15:28 am by 440bx »
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avra

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2019, 01:48:06 pm »
I had compiler features in mind, where not just one person would offer a "reward" for its implementation but, anyone who is interested in seeing the feature implemented, could add their name to list along with the additional amount they are willing to add to the "pot".
I don't see what stops you from adding a bounty for a specific compiler feature, and then asking everyone interested to add to the bounty. Payoff condition would be that feature ends up in official freepascal, so interested implementor would have to make an effort of investigating what would be needed for that to happen.
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Martin_fr

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2019, 02:03:41 pm »
Well, first of all you could check yourself if the desired feature would ever stand a chance.

You can go through past discussions of the forum, to see if your feature was previously mentioned, and why it did not happen.

Some feature are simply deemed "will not ever be accepted". (i.e., if you want them, start a fork).
E.g. it is rather unlikely that the compiler gets a c++ directive (like the asm block), and starts accepting native c code). It is after all Pascal and not C.

Some say the decision process what is allowed is too obscured. Personally I have seen it done more or less the same with many other open source projects: Some group (small or large), with its members defined/selected by some (arbitrary) criteria, must in the end make the decision.

Once a feature is deemed "potentially ok", you can go starting a bounty process (through what ever means)

Thaddy

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2019, 02:04:33 pm »
There already have been instances where members of the core team have been payed even very significant amounts of money to implement a feature, replacing a significant part or all of their usual income.

But as Martin wrote and I concur: do not start implementing a feature *before* you researched the likelihood it will be included, usually on fpc-devel.

Aside: any such payments are not public nor published where individual are involved.
Unless they decide to do so themselves.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 02:18:26 pm by Thaddy »
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ssliackus

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2019, 02:29:21 pm »
Beautiful idea, but if that is going to work?

I can suggest another approach (by creating an additional value):
1. Find successful commercial project who switched to FPC and present it as success story in figures i.e. with narrative: "we saved XX much by switching from AA to FPC".
2. Find 3-5 similar project that thinking to switch and make contract - we support/help them switch and save them YY amount of money, they donate fraction of saved amount to FPC foundation.
3. Profit. Everyone is happy.

Personally I've never understood any additional value in that the project is open source or that is free. That's is big misunderstanding that get that for free and be happy - like a trees in the wood. To get something out of the trees you need to cut them, process them and only then sell  it - there is a gap between goods ant final value (in price) and that gap is usually price (what removes any benefits of being free and being open - you need to spent good amount of resource to benefit from that). If there is a way to bridge the gap, there will be a way to attract more successful commercial projects into FPC.

Thaddy

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2019, 02:33:55 pm »
As I wrote, there have been precedents. If you are a good observer you also know which features have been sponsored  8-)
As long as it does not affect the license I do not see a need to publish that. That's up to the contractor and contractee(s).
I am talking about full-time or near full-time occupation, so this can be substantial and therefor private.
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440bx

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2019, 02:39:00 pm »
I don't see what stops you from adding a bounty for a specific compiler feature, and then asking everyone interested to add to the bounty.
You're right, there is nothing stopping me from doing that.  What I seem to have missed (if it exists) is a very obvious/visible list of features people have offered a bounty for, thus enabling other people to add themselves and their bounty offer to a particular feature. 

What @Zoran pointed to is a list but, IMO, it is not exactly very "visible" nor does it invite others to "opt-in" (or even make that easy/obvious)



Well, first of all you could check yourself if the desired feature would ever stand a chance.
Absolutely!.  That's why I mentioned removing limitations on "variants" in a forum thread.  I did see a very modest amount of interest from other forum members but, the subject didn't even get a comment from any of the developers.  Personally, not only I think it would be very nice, I find it surprising that it has not been implemented yet but, interest seem to be lukewarm at best which, in turn, doesn't do much for my desire to offer a bounty to see it implemented.

Once a feature is deemed "potentially ok", you can go starting a bounty process (through what ever means)
I couldn't agree anymore with that. Again, referring to the "variant" thread, it was essentially ignored by the developers which led me to forget that idea.


...  been payed [edit: paid] even ... 
your English is good, that's just my 4 keystrokes (excluding punctuation and keyword) to help make it better.


But as Martin wrote and I concur: do not start implementing a feature *before* you researched the likelihood it will be included, usually on fpc-devel.
... and I concur too.




It seems to me that, even though there is somewhat of a mechanism in place, it really isn't very visible nor is it inviting for others to add themselves to those interested in a particular feature.

Basically, I think it would be nice, not to mention potentially much more effective and rewarding for the developers, to have something that is very visible (like the bugtracker for instance) where those interested can add themselves and their bounty in support of a particular feature.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 02:42:36 pm by 440bx »
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marcov

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2019, 02:46:58 pm »
IMHO the recent problems with rejections is because aspiring developers try to do too much to soon, without getting a feel for the project.

Start small. Ask questions a lot. Learn proper procedures. And, most importantly, don't reformat code unnecessarily, keep patches to the point and as small as possible. It doesn't matter if it is in a git branch or a submitted patch.

Many delays come due to unclean patches.

Thaddy

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2019, 02:56:13 pm »

...  been payed [edit: paid] even ... 
your English is good, that's just my 4 keystrokes (excluding punctuation and keyword) to help make it better.
It is quite sufficient since it is correct to write payed in the context of pay. Paid is related to shopping or settling a bill. Payed is remuneration for work or services rendered. So ...? ;D ;D ;D ;D Be careful what  you wish for....< >:D >:D > Your "correction" is actually a mistake.
To put this into context: the amount you are being payed to perform a task is usually paid in periodical settlements. Examine any of the good English dictionaries and you will see the error of your ways .. O:-) O:-)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 03:10:45 pm by Thaddy »
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440bx

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2019, 03:08:16 pm »
It is quite sufficient since it is correct to write payed in the context of pay. Paid is related to shopping or settling a bill. Payed is remuneration for work or services rendered. So ...? ;D ;D ;D ;D Be careful what  you wish for....< >:D >:D > Your "correction" is actually a mistake.
Now you're being funny.  Unless, you somehow saw the subject as being nautical, your usage of the word "payed" is incorrect.

Since my intention was genuinely to help, I figured I'd keep helping... here is what the word "payed" is for:

Quote
pay

/pā/

verb
Nautical

past tense: payed; past participle: payed

seal (the deck or hull seams of a wooden ship) with pitch or tar to prevent leakage.
"an open groove between the planks had to be payed by running in hot pitch from a special ladle"
Unless FPC has planks that need to be sealed, it is quite unlikely that your usage of the word "payed" was correct.  Feel free to disagree, I'm sure you will but, don't get grumpy, it's not good for you.

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Thaddy

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2019, 03:12:12 pm »
Just examine one of the good English dictionaries. Any of them...
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440bx

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Re: Features for money ?
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2019, 03:20:08 pm »
Just examine one of the good English dictionaries. Any of them...
By that definition Merriam-Webster is not a good dictionary.  Here is what they say about "payed"

Quote
pay
  verb (2)

payed also paid;  paying 

Definition of pay (Entry 4 of 4)
 
transitive verb

: to coat with a waterproof composition
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