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Author Topic: Heat from FreeBasic  (Read 31646 times)

ASBzone

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2019, 06:31:32 pm »
If you want the truth. I will told you.

Yes, we are interested in the truth.  Anything else is pointless.


Laz is like something from the xp era with delphi 7 look and feel that is just sucks.

Rather than just providing a critique -- which appears quite subjective -- can you provide an explanation of the lack of functionality that you are looking to address?

BTW, personally, I am not inherently opposed to "modern," but I do find that some of what passes for "modern" as it pertains to interfaces, is just change for the sake of change, and does not aid in discrimination of visual elements or improved productivity, etc.

So, if we're going to discuss better looks, there out to be some objective gain from it all.


Anchordockingdsng help a bit but still look ancient compared to other ide, even the freebasic ones.

In what way does the old look present functionality problems?   I've seen lots of cute looking, yet quite useless software of late.   There's no direct correlation between looks and capabilities.


The weakest part is in your code editor (formatter and code suggestion).

Can you name some concrete problems?   (And, yes, I have seen some issues with the latter myself)

We're trying to get beyond mere whining and into constructive criticism/assessment.   That will go a long way to actually getting some things changed.
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marcov

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2019, 07:24:28 pm »
Do any of the FB have docking at all, or just fixed layouts?
As I see all of them are fixed. But almost any other ides of other languages too.

Many primitive IDEs don't aspire to have docking. But that makes plugin systems that also have GUI more difficult.

Ñuño_Martínez

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2019, 10:33:23 am »
One of the very stupid of Laz is terminal on *nix os. On windows when you run your cli apps a cmd windows will appear but on *nix nothing. Their is a hack for each project as I saw too time consuming so I use debug output windows instead, no way comparable to a terminal like xfce4-terminal but I could see my app running  >:(
This is not an issue related with Lazarus/Free Pascal, but with POSIX itself.  Actually, Write(Ln) and ReadLn use stdout and stdin streams.  When you open a terminal or "console window" these streams are piped to the keyboard and the "text output" of such terminal at the application initialization.  If no terminal exists, then they're piped to /null or maybe to a log file.  Actually you can modify such behavior when invoking the program  (for example: "myapp > outstream.txt" will pipe stdout to a text file, while "myapp | otherapp" will pipe the stdout of "myapp" to the stdin of "otherapp") and even programmatically (i.e. using TProcess pipe properties).

Windows works in a different way, but it emulates some of the stdin/stdout/stderr functionality up to Window 8, not sure newer Windows 10 but since it is not POSIX yet I think it still lacks some functionality despite the "Debian" support.

That's why you get an error when running a Windows console application without console but don't get anything when running a non GUI application on Linux.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 10:38:43 am by Ñuño_Martínez »
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giahung1997

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2019, 02:50:47 pm »
One of the very stupid of Laz is terminal on *nix os. On windows when you run your cli apps a cmd windows will appear but on *nix nothing.
That sounds like you're expecting the compiler and its RTL to hand things in a silver platter to you.  Don't take that comment personally, it seems to be rather common for programmers to expect the framework/RTL/whatever to almost read their minds and do the work for them.

No matter how cushy and nice a development environment may be, if the language has limitations in effectively communicating with the O/S, it's usefulness is limited.

The comment above is generic, I have not used FB, therefore I don't know if it suffers those limitations but, your comment there does give the impression that you are expecting more from the language/environment than is "wise".
What is the point you want to make here? It's a pure ide problem nothing with language/rtl bla bla  >:(

giahung1997

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2019, 02:53:20 pm »
Do any of the FB have docking at all, or just fixed layouts?
As I see all of them are fixed. But almost any other ides of other languages too.

Many primitive IDEs don't aspire to have docking. But that makes plugin systems that also have GUI more difficult.

Answer me man, in your definition of docking is eclipse support docking? Let me know. I afraid we means different thing about the word 'docking'  :(

giahung1997

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2019, 02:59:23 pm »
One of the very stupid of Laz is terminal on *nix os. On windows when you run your cli apps a cmd windows will appear but on *nix nothing. Their is a hack for each project as I saw too time consuming so I use debug output windows instead, no way comparable to a terminal like xfce4-terminal but I could see my app running  >:(
This is not an issue related with Lazarus/Free Pascal, but with POSIX itself.  Actually, Write(Ln) and ReadLn use stdout and stdin streams.  When you open a terminal or "console window" these streams are piped to the keyboard and the "text output" of such terminal at the application initialization.  If no terminal exists, then they're piped to /null or maybe to a log file.  Actually you can modify such behavior when invoking the program  (for example: "myapp > outstream.txt" will pipe stdout to a text file, while "myapp | otherapp" will pipe the stdout of "myapp" to the stdin of "otherapp") and even programmatically (i.e. using TProcess pipe properties).

Windows works in a different way, but it emulates some of the stdin/stdout/stderr functionality up to Window 8, not sure newer Windows 10 but since it is not POSIX yet I think it still lacks some functionality despite the "Debian" support.

That's why you get an error when running a Windows console application without console but don't get anything when running a non GUI application on Linux.
No no I said when I launch a cli app from Lazarus on windows a console window immediately appear but on *nix nothing. It's because a mistake of laz dev. Lazarus need xorg to run, and every installation of xorg included xterm. So we always has at least a terminal. Codeblocks knows it so they just launch cli app using xterm by default and allow change terminal emulator to other better looking than xterm on their setting. Why don't do like Codeblocks dev? Nothing to do with posix/stdin/out/err bla bla   ;D

They key is launch your cli app with an terminal emulator will show you your app running on the console. Laz doesn't launch using the terminal emulator but the app itself so it will show nothing.

I said again, feed your app to a terminal emulator. Laz dev seemed didn't know that  >:(
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 03:46:25 pm by giahung1997 »

marcov

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2019, 02:59:33 pm »
Answer me man, in your definition of docking is eclipse support docking? Let me know. I afraid we means different thing about the word 'docking'  :(

I don't know, I don't use eclipse.

Handoko

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2019, 03:03:08 pm »
@giahung1997

You said you will try to discuss professionally. I saw you show a l lot of red angry faces. Not professional. I'm out.

Moderator, please lock this thread. This thread is not healthy.

giahung1997

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2019, 03:08:52 pm »
Answer me man, in your definition of docking is eclipse support docking? Let me know. I afraid we means different thing about the word 'docking'  :(

I don't know, I don't use eclipse.
Is it the same as java layout manager? I have my background in java so win32 is alien to me.

https://www.javatpoint.com/java-layout-manager

If so nearly all of the ide or code editors support 'docking'. Including the freebasic ones.

Edit: sorry, after revised my knowledge I know what docking is. I left college since 2016, 2nd year, when only learn haft of swing programming  :-[
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 03:49:35 pm by giahung1997 »

giahung1997

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2019, 03:10:59 pm »
@giahung1997

You said you will try to discuss professionally. I saw you show a l lot of red angry faces. Not professional. I'm out.

Moderator, please lock this thread. This thread is not healthy.
Do whatever you want. I really angry with these people f*cking my eye with wall of text but nothing related to my problem. Lock this thread so they could stop bs with nonsense things  >:(

marcov

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2019, 03:43:24 pm »
Is it the same as java layout manager? I have my background in java so win32 is alien to me.

https://www.javatpoint.com/java-layout-manager

If so nearly all of the ide or code editors support 'docking'. Including the freebasic ones.

I did some Java, but only in servers, never desktops, so the technologies are not that familiar to me.

But from what I see: No, unless they really support dragging and dropping something from the left to the right. IOW not just relative sizes, but whole layout. Turning windows on and off etc, also for situations and windows not prepared in code.

P.s. I agree somewhat with Handoko that your style is a bit aggressive, and low on details. You seem to want to rant against lazarus without knowing what it can do, and why it does the things it does, and only seem to want to name/url drop other products. Please be a bit more constructive
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 03:45:25 pm by marcov »

giahung1997

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2019, 03:59:05 pm »
Is it the same as java layout manager? I have my background in java so win32 is alien to me.

https://www.javatpoint.com/java-layout-manager

If so nearly all of the ide or code editors support 'docking'. Including the freebasic ones.

I did some Java, but only in servers, never desktops, so the technologies are not that familiar to me.

But from what I see: No, unless they really support dragging and dropping something from the left to the right. IOW not just relative sizes, but whole layout. Turning windows on and off etc, also for situations and windows not prepared in code.

P.s. I agree somewhat with Handoko that your style is a bit aggressive, and low on details. You seem to want to rant against lazarus without knowing what it can do, and why it does the things it does, and only seem to want to name/url drop other products. Please be a bit more constructive
I don't want to rant. My English is too bad I can't express my thoughts fully. The way I using words is very primitive and could be impolite. I'm sorry.

I learn software dev from college with java but didn't complete the course. I left since my 2nd yr at that time I only know basic programming and basic gui coding with swing by hand (no netbeans drag n drop). My programming knowledge is limited. So I could be ignorant. It's a long time I'm not revise my knowledge. I could be rusty.

As a farmer worked too hard, I couldn't help myself with these kind of answers, they answer me nothing but bs. Although not good in programming but I'm experienced in *nix sys admin, so I know what they said so I told them they're just plain wrong. Perhaps I know about Linux system administration more than them.

440bx

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2019, 04:41:06 pm »
What is the point you want to make here? It's a pure ide problem nothing with language/rtl bla bla  >:(
The point is, it's not an IDE problem.  It's a programmer problem.  Expecting the IDE and/or compiler to do more for the programmer than it really should.  That's the problem.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 05:05:06 pm by 440bx »
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giahung1997

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2019, 05:37:52 pm »
What is the point you want to make here? It's a pure ide problem nothing with language/rtl bla bla  >:(
The point is, it's not an IDE problem.  It's a programmer problem.  Expecting the IDE and/or compiler to do more for the programmer than it really should.  That's the problem.
No. You're very wrong.
When you kick run, any ide out there on linux will spawn a terminal emulator with the output app feed to it for you to see the result. Laz didn't do that but launch it app itself, without an terminal emulator it will show nothing. It's abnormal. It's laz's stupidity.

https://docs.xfce.org/apps/terminal/command-line
Read this. Something like xfce4-terminal -x  is just enough. Too easy to do. But laz dev don't do and keep ignorant about it.

P/s: my last post on this thread. Be humble about what you don't know sir. Don't be BS  >:(

Martin_fr

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Re: Heat from FreeBasic
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2019, 05:58:15 pm »
Can *EVERYONE* keep to a civil language please (those who haven't will know). Thanks

When you kick run, any ide out there on linux will spawn a terminal emulator with the output app feed to it for you to see the result. Laz didn't do that but launch it app itself, without an terminal emulator it will show nothing. It's abnormal. It's laz's stupidity.

https://docs.xfce.org/apps/terminal/command-line
Read this. Something like xfce4-terminal -x  is just enough. Too easy to do. But laz dev don't do and keep ignorant about it.

Lazarus has a feature for using a launcher app (such as a terminal).

You can set it under menu: run > run parameters.
But with many terminals, GDB is then unable to get control of the application you want to debug.

It may well be that we are missing something, because most other developer tools on *nix are gdb based too. If they indeed have a generic working solution..., well then the question is how.

Specific details, and patches are welcome. But to make them a default setting, they have to work on a majority of linux distributions. ("work" means, that gdb must be able to get control of the target app, set breakpoints, stop at exceptions, ....)

Until such a solution is known, you can try the terminals on your OS, and if any of them works, you are lucky.

« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 06:03:01 pm by Martin_fr »

 

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