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Author Topic: TMS Web Core vs. Elevate Web Builder vs, FMSoft UniGUI vs. VirtualUI vs. ?  (Read 2215 times)

tatamata

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Obviously, I am looking for object pascal RAD tool to build web application in no time.
As somebody who despise web frameworks and have zero will to learn coding web apps from scratch, I am willing to pay fair price for adequate RAD tools.
Please help with advice.
So far I have found: TMS Web Core, Elevate Web Builder, Smart Mobile Studio, FMSoft UniGUI, VirtualUI, Atozed IntraWeb...
UPDATE: To clarify, I am talking about tools to compile object pascal desktop-like app to a javascript based web app.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 12:06:08 pm by tatamata »

hrayon

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Hello!
Since nobody has answered yet, and still waiting for advice ...
I also get lost and discouraged when I think about having to develop something for the Web or for mobile applications.
All the time there are new "tools" appearing, and it is a risk to invest some time in them and shortly thereafter it becomes obsolete. Or choose one that will only uncover the problems and limitations after much time invested.
Perhaps the question would be: Which tool solves this problem faster?
Which leads to the second question: Could you detail the problem?
"web application" is still somewhat vague.
But unfortunately I do not know any of the tools you have indicated. I also await good advice.
(translated by Google)

tatamata

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My intent is to use Lazarus as RAD tool for database-driven web applications.
So far I have already realized it is not currently possible, except with commercial TMS Web Core package which is promised to fully support Lazarus in next version (they said in next few weeks).
Other possibilities are also commercial, of which Elevate Web Builder seems to be best candidate. It is stand-alone RAD tool, but at least, it is object-pascal pretty much similar to Lazarus. And it is well documented, there are even commercial books available to purchase.
In both cases REST web services are needed to enable communication with databases. This is a new concept for me, but OK I hope I will learn it in reasonable time.
Generally speaking, it is pity that Lazarus haven't gone in that direction (pas2js widgets) before, but I suppose it will come in future. Desktop applications just have no future, except for narrow niche purposes.

ASBzone

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Desktop applications just have no future, except for narrow niche purposes.

Sure... And mainframes are totally dead, too.

There are lots of things that happen in technology without totally obsoleting the things that went before it.

Desktop might not be the growing segment right now, but it is not obsolete by any means, and will not go that way inside of 5 years. 
-ASB: https://www.BrainWaveCC.com

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marcov

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Note that it is the wrong question to ask anyway if webapps will win out in the end (regardless of the answer).

If you choose now for some webapp in a style or with tools that won't be there in 3 years, it was a wrong bet.

The correct question is which investments will last longer and maintain better.

The answer on that, of course, is "depends on app and application".

bee

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Web applications isn't that hard, it's pretty simple actually. You don't need RAD to create web UI. Just learn HTML and CSS with a little bit of JS (mostly needed for ajax transaction and live data updating) will do. Once you know how to deal with them (the trio HTML, CSS, and JS), it's pretty easy to create beautiful web UI by yourself.

I've been making web apps using Free Pascal (no Lazarus IDE) since about 15+ years ago, long before FPC provided fpWeb. I created my own web framework from scratch. No external frameworks like everybody is talking today needed. In my opinion, those frameworks make web app making unnecessarily complex and bloated. They also make web app programming looks hard and complicated. Yes, including fpWeb too.

REST is basically just another way communicating data through HTTP protocol. The front-end part of your app sends an HTTP request (either GET or POST or any other HTPP request methods) in known formatted data (either JSON or XML) and the back-end part of your app returns the data being requested in known formatted data as well (JSON or XML). It's still obey the basic HTTP communication mechanism, there's nothing actually new.

Using external framework make you dependent to it in long term, or you're vendor locked-in so to say. It makes you powerless when the framework is unavailable to you. If you let yourself invest your time a bit, say 1-2 weeks, to study HTML, CSS, and JS then you could build your great web app by yourself. I believe a smart and experienced programmer like @tatamata could master them easily in no time. Especially since now FPC also has pas2js that would cover the JS part.

Well… happy coding then. :)
-Bee-

A long time pascal lover.

marcov

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Web applications isn't that hard, it's pretty simple actually. You don't need RAD to create web UI. Just learn HTML and CSS with a little bit of JS (mostly needed for ajax transaction and live data updating) will do. Once you know how to deal with them (the trio HTML, CSS, and JS), it's pretty easy to create beautiful web UI by yourself.

And five minutes later, the customer wants to download the content in PDF, and the disaster starts :-)   

Apps are more than just UI. Usually they also DO something, and communicate with outside world (databases, printers, export of data (like the PDF example above)). In development environments that are armslength (or more) from the system, this is often the biggest problem.
 
And if you webapp widens, there is of course disability and other people using weird screen and entry formats (like some managers iphone etc etc)

bee

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And five minutes later, the customer wants to download the content in PDF, and the disaster starts :-)
Is it really a disaster? I don't think so.

Apps are more than just UI. Usually they also DO something, and communicate with outside world (databases, printers, export of data (like the PDF example above)). In development environments that are armslength (or more) from the system, this is often the biggest problem.
Of course. Did I say otherwise? Hence the name is "app" not "site". But any apps need UI nonetheless. I mentioned about html, css, and js is to show that making the UI part of a web app isn't difficult. It's not even the main problem.


And if you webapp widens, there is of course disability and other people using weird screen and entry formats (like some managers iphone etc etc)
Sure. Did you ever heard about responsive design? :)
-Bee-

A long time pascal lover.

marcov

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And if you webapp widens, there is of course disability and other people using weird screen and entry formats (like some managers iphone etc etc)
Sure. Did you ever heard about responsive design? :)

Vaguely. I'm out of webdesign for a few years, so the buzzword bingo is beyond me.

But such things are what tools are for to guide you in your first effort, and such things don't rhyme with your initial paragraph:

Quote
Web applications isn't that hard, it's pretty simple actually. You don't need RAD to create web UI. Just learn HTML and CSS with a little bit of JS (mostly needed for ajax transaction and live data updating) will do. Once you know how to deal with them (the trio HTML, CSS, and JS), it's pretty easy to create beautiful web UI by yourself.

Yeah, but it is doing it GOOD that is the problem.

xinyiman

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Hi, some of the ones you listed didn't know about them. It would also be nice to understand the price difference between the various products. Furthermore it seems to me that among those you listed only TMS Web Core will support lazarus. Furthermore, Elevate Web Builder does not seem to be particularly maintained by what I see on the internet. There are few videos on youtube and all older than 2 years. However it is a subject that I am always interested in, so I write to follow the 3d.
Ubuntu and Mac
Lazarus: 1.8.0
FPC: 3.0.4

tatamata

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I'm playing with the Elevate Web Builder, see attachments.
It seems to be familiar environment and relatively simple to connect to PostgreSQL database through ODBC.
I don't yet fully understand how to maintain master/detail relationships between datasets or grids, I knnow how to do it during application loading, but don' yet understand how to maintain it when a row is changed in a master grid...

For enterprise application, it seems that the mormot can be used with the EWB. There is a book available on Internet (https://www.amazon.com/Enterprise-Delphi-Databases-Elevate-Builder/dp/1517516005) describing how to combine mormot with the EWB.

Regarding TMS Web Core, yes it seems to be only one that integrates with the Lazarus. But it seems more difficult to connect databases than with EWB. There is a TMS xData package that is a separate product, but I think it is only for Delphi. Maybe I'm wrong.

xinyiman

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Since you're playing, can you tell me the cost and if you can compile for linux?
Ubuntu and Mac
Lazarus: 1.8.0
FPC: 3.0.4

tatamata

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Since you're playing, can you tell me the cost and if you can compile for linux?
It's subscription based licencing, explained here: https://www.elevatesoft.com/sales
Initial price is $359.00 (see here: https://www.elevatesoft.com/products?action=order&category=ewb&type=web)

As far as I understand it compiles to javascript app, so it should run in web browser on all platforms.

In trial version that I'm playing with, you can't deploy app, it runs in-memory in the embedded internal web browser.

xinyiman

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Where is the trial version?
Ubuntu and Mac
Lazarus: 1.8.0
FPC: 3.0.4