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Author Topic: Stance for hate mails and competing projects  (Read 46030 times)

qdos

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2015, 02:28:09 pm »
I must say I find this quite incredible.

First, as for evidence, a person who has seen his code ripped has already voiced this - but he was simply deleted from the forum. So the "where is the evidence" card is useless.

Secondly, I have no intention of waring with anyone. But you dont have to look far to find people who react to their behavior. Right here on this forum people have said that they were suprised to find their code renamed, repacked and redistributed with not as much as an email asking if it's ok.

If we are going to co-exist then we should each (including me) follow the rules.
I could have produced my IDE in a couple of days if I just stole everything from Lazarus -- but that would be immoral and disrespecting to the original authors.
And should I find code I need, I ask before i take it. In 99.9% of the cases, people say yes. So it costs nothing being polite about it.

But I will respect this groups wishes and not write more about it here.
But for the blog -- thats not gonna happen.
People ask for proof, well they will get it.
I was trying to avoid having to list people and projects by name, but since people have now contacted me and said they would like to be listed -- I have no scruples putting the case straight.


lagprogramming

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2015, 02:47:34 pm »
@JuhaManninen
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qdos, you should delete your blog for sake of the future of this project.
You write that you are a friend of FPC and Lazarus, but your actions make us look bad. People reading your blog automatically think it represents this project's views.
He must have learned that from somebody. You act the same way, making the community look bad. Latest example comes from "What about a more modern IDE?"
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I think this is enough. Somebody has given me admin rights for this forum and I will use them to delete future posts from Gosh in this thread...
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As I wrote this would go on forever. Marco already answered one of his mails before I removed them...
   Although Gosh is the one that started the topic, instead of locking the forum topic you've decided to delete his posts allowing other members the possibility to "slaughter" him. I'm pretty sure the community is proud to have such a moderator. This forum subject(created by you) was completely ignored by the community until yesterday, when two individuals went to PilotLogic forum and started threatening with law suits. Why!? Because of license copyright infringements. None of them was able to clearly give an example there, none of them officially represents Lazarus, I think none of them is a Lazarus vanilla(core) developer. A couple of minutes after leaving the PilotLogic forum, this thread started to be filled with texts. In my point of view, it's an attempt to create a hostile environment between vanilla developers and non-vanilla ones, in the interest of a third-party. And they use the door opened by you(this forum thread).
   Splitting forum threads with member disagreement(like the "FreeSparta is Opensource" one, as I remember), moving or removing member posts(especially when they are subject starter ones) leave the impression that no matter how many posts you read, you read moderators point of views, not community's ones. The getlazarus initiative starts to have a solid ground here.

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We have already seen the war coming here. Some individuals have claimed that Lazarus developers are evil and hate competition. It is a lie, I have not seen any hate mails from the developers, but when the lie is repeated enough many times it becomes true in peoples' minds.
- asking people to use external blogs, forums, mailing lists...knowing that it will reduce the exposure within the pascal community:
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Every substantial project has its own forum / newsgroup / mailing list. Drupal has, Linux kernel has, FpGui has, Lazarus has.
Didn't you know it?
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Your writings have less and less connection with reality. Please use a personal blog somewhere else instead of polluting the Lazarus forum.
Funny thing is that the official Lazarus forum is found at freepascal.org.
- proposal of solutions to problems knowing that the consequence is a dead-end: like the FreeSparta svn branch found at http://svn.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/branches/free-sparta/?root=lazarus
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6.You must be developer of non "Hello world" apps to understand 1.)...5.)
So, IMO, branch for this situation is most clever solution.
- the quote above might also be an example of how main Lazarus developers treat other ones. The activity of fork/flavour developers on this forum exceeds the capacity of the servers  %). Common, are we all liars and we all want death to Lazarus!? So who's causing this!? Sysrpl is the most vocal on the forum and mailing lists, I include him due to the BareGame history, but I wonder how long will it take.

taazz

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2015, 02:54:18 pm »
I must say I find this quite incredible.

First, as for evidence, a person who has seen his code ripped has already voiced this - but he was simply deleted from the forum. So the "where is the evidence" card is useless.

Secondly, I have no intention of waring with anyone. But you dont have to look far to find people who react to their behavior. Right here on this forum people have said that they were suprised to find their code renamed, repacked and redistributed with not as much as an email asking if it's ok.

If we are going to co-exist then we should each (including me) follow the rules.

If there are evidence then post them I did not see the post you are referring to and since it has been deleted I can not have any kind of opinion. I have no reason not to believe you so I believe that there is some kind of conflict either based on license infringement or misunderstanding. In any case I'll not going to side with any one until I have seen some evidence and no they deleted the thread is not evidence its not even a valid argument. Think of it this way a police man testifies in court that the drag dealer flashed down the toilet the drags with out any other evidence to support hes accusations that the accused is a drag dealer.
Again sorry but not going to jump on that train with out evidence.


I could have produced my IDE in a couple of days if I just stole everything from Lazarus -- but that would be immoral and disrespecting to the original authors.
And should I find code I need, I ask before i take it. In 99.9% of the cases, people say yes. So it costs nothing being polite about it.

No it wouldn't, then again it would depend how you where going to handle the "use of lazarus". They have made an educated choice of sharing their code under an open source license knowing fully that their code will be used by both open and closed source projects not using them is their loss actually and could be seen as a disrespect as well but that could be seen as a "straw man" as well.

But I will respect this groups wishes and not write more about it here.
But for the blog -- thats not gonna happen.

You go it wrong this groups wishes are for you to provide evidence of your accusations for two reasons
1) We must draw our own conclusions before supporting or not any movement against a project.
2) To actually avoid possible legal complications by mis using a library (using a gpl as public domain for example).

We need to learn in order for us to protect.

People ask for proof, well they will get it.
I was trying to avoid having to list people and projects by name, but since people have now contacted me and said they would like to be listed -- I have no scruples putting the case straight.

Thank you for your understanding, waiting to see those evidence.
Good judgement is the result of experience … Experience is the result of bad judgement.

OS : Windows 7 64 bit
Laz: Lazarus 1.4.4 FPC 2.6.4 i386-win32-win32/win64

qdos

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2015, 03:44:42 pm »
Just to clear up the chain of events here, so that people dont add more to this than is actually there:

1. I wrote an article about violations because a lot of people were talking about that. I also have people I know personally who have sent emails to pilotlogic asking to have their code removed. They are angry because pilotlogic havent event bother to respond. When people ask on their forum, they are simply deleted - as was also the case of Peter Dunne which is the administrator over at Delphi Developer (facebook). He was kicked from their forum only last night for asking the question.

2. After the article the author of the Sparta Project decided to do the right thing. He published and made the source available - and has shown that he is a not only a good programmer, but also a very good guy. Sadly pilotlogic continues to ignore users.

3. Yesterday I was told that someone was "talking shit behind your back" on the pilotlogic forum. I enter the forum and find a rather colorful description of myself - and also a very insulting conspiracy theory where i am secretly working to destroy Lazarus and FPC. Which is just incredibly stupid since two of my own products are made with FPC/Lazarus. I am also promoting FPC to everyone and intend to donate my entire codebase to FPC/Lazarus, including parts of the tech behind Smart Mobile Studio.
I respond just as colorful as the poster -- which naturally seem a bit shocked to find himself face to face with the person he just thrash-talked.

3. Another user, which has sent email after email to pilotlogic asking to have his code removed, joins in. He threatens to file a lawsuit because he is sick and tired of being bullied by them.

4. Pilotlogic respond by posting my home address, telephone number and office.

5. I remind them that it's illegal to post personal information as such without consent. This is standard european law. But they utterly refuse to even reply.

6. I inform them that I will contact their ISP monday if this continues. They can delete my personal information - and we can talk this over in a proper way.

7. I post the name and code-case from the other user, which has threaten with a lawsuit. At which I am kicked and banned, and the thread is deleted.

8. I google the name of the author and find a lazarus/fpc forum link (here), click around inside the forum, and come across this thread.

And that's it. There is no conspiracy, no evil secret plans, no negativity and no war.

The author in question has been contacted, I have asked him to post his case here, so that we can be done with this "evidence" silliness once and for all.

And now this prince of darkness is making brownies for his kids (or minions i guess that makes them)  ::)

NOTE: There is presently a poll about this on Delphi Developer, Peter has simply written:

"I have just checked the codebase for CodeTyphon, a quick check and found the ACS files still do not have proper license and copyright information The original files are available at http://sourceforge.net/p/lazaru…/…/HEAD/tree/components/acs/ and it is LGPL but clearly licensed and copyright"

So if you think it's just me making a storm in a glass of water (as we say in norway), that is not the case. I dont make shit up.

Remember when I told you that Embarcadero was using FPC? No one believed me until Rozlog came on this forum and verified it. Then everyone was shocked.
I dont like about things like this, that would just be stupid.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 03:50:53 pm by qdos »

Fred vS

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2015, 04:11:17 pm »
@ qdos => i see already a big lie in what you explained, how could we trust you ?

By that way, i wait for your list of the stolen developers.

[EDIT] You deleted my last post in your blog-site.
This is a good beginning, now go further, delete the hole blog.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 04:21:43 pm by Fred vS »
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airpas

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2015, 04:20:52 pm »
i don't know why CodeTyphon v5.3 make all their pl_xxx components imposible to install with lazarus  , i don't know what is their plans , but it seems apparently they are trying to monopoly every things illegally . bad intention

qdos

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2015, 04:28:26 pm »
@ qdos => i see already a big lie in what you explained, how could we trust you ?

Lie? There is no "lie" here? But ofcourse you want to turn this into something it's not, so you probably see lies everywhere. Dude, what is your problem? You have been at this for ages now.
I really dont care what you think.

By that way, i wait for your list of the stolen developers.

And as explained for the second time, one of the people who have gotten his code stolen will be joining this forum shortly.

Fred vS

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2015, 04:29:16 pm »
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i don't know why CodeTyphon v5.3 make all their pl_xxx components imposible to install with lazarus

I think the reason is because CodeTyphon and Lazarus are different.
I do not see bad intentions, it is more to avoid incompatibility.

For example last CodeTyphon v5.3 is compiled with fpc 3.0. and Lazarus with fpc 2.4.
Lot of LCL Lazarus components are not  fpc 3.0 compatible (yet).

(One of) The remarkable work of Sternas is to make those components fpc 3.0 ready.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 04:32:29 pm by Fred vS »
I use Lazarus 2.0.6 32/64 and FPC 3.2.0 32/64 on Debian 10.2 64 bit, Windows 10, Windows 7 32/64, Windows XP 32,  FreeBSD 64 and Mac OS X Snow Leopard 32.
Widgetset: fpGUI, MSEgui, Win32, GTK2, Qt, Carbon.

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dmytron

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2015, 04:36:39 pm »
Ok, maybe there was some stealing, so what now? You can sue them. Victims can sue CT. But what happens right now? It just brings hate and controversy to the FPC and Lazarus community. You can boycott them. However, the proofs are from your words, qdos, only, so it's hard for anyone to believe in it completely (sometimes in court one witness isn't enough, even if he/she is trustworthy).

airpas

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2015, 04:42:49 pm »
why they don't collaborate with lazarus team then ? . if you say they have a different views ,  why lazarus and codetyphone ide looks the same , nothings changed ! .

the only thing they make good is the easy crosscompilation .

dmytron

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2015, 04:46:40 pm »
why they don't collaborate with lazarus team then ? . if you say they have a different views ,  why lazarus and codetyphone ide looks the same , nothings changed ! .

It isn't a requirement to collaborate with Lazarus team, isn't it? It must be written somewhere on license.

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The general rule must be to respect high quality software made by anybody. It includes our projects, FPC and Lazarus, but also competing projects like the Lazarus forks and Smart Mobile Studio etc.

Martin_fr

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2015, 05:02:54 pm »
why they don't collaborate with lazarus team then ? . if you say they have a different views ,  why lazarus and codetyphone ide looks the same , nothings changed ! .

It would be nice, if they did. But they are not legally required.

See my previous post. If sources keep license (and I guess copyright) remarks, then they can rename sources (they must however state so, since it is a change and they are obliqued to say that they changed the sources).

Afaik (but I do not know for sure) - with the exception to any of the requirements about the sources in the above paragraph - they are not even required to state that there IDE is based on Lazarus.
If you find something different in the (L)GPL, please quote it.

It would be nice if they did, but they are not alone on this part. Other forks exist that do not mention there origin.
Look at libre office. Well the difference here is that part of the team also moved. But then (afaik) they also ported some open office changes from after the fork back to libre office (allowed by the license used for open office). Do you see a big fat mention on their website?

So yes it would be nice if they would mention lazarus, and contribute back. But if they don't, it is their rightful decision.

That does not mean that everything they do is necessarily right. Or that they way they did the rebrand is in accordance with the license. It only states that such a rebrand can (afaik) be done without breaking the license.

*IF* they broke the license, then show the code and quote the license.

mica

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2015, 05:09:29 pm »
look at the Orca/Lava Stuff (demos are the most visible)
and compare to VG/DX-Scene

qdos

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2015, 05:13:47 pm »
*IF* they broke the license, then show the code and quote the license.

They violate the notices in the ACS audio component library which is freely available under the LGPL and could have been legitimately included in their CodeTyphon product which is really really stupid.

Gl3nn

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2015, 05:23:54 pm »
Guys you are really missing the essence of the case here.

Back in April 2011 on this very forum I voiced my concerns about CodeTyphon and the way this
whole package is constructed as there are several areas which is questionable.
For reference, this thread: http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,12896.0.html?PHPSESSID=aea5e27db08318e63db58ad13b68cbbc

In 2010 I proposed the inclusion of the component TColorProgress in CodeTyphon because I've found it great. All good it went in.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IClR0hBpyLUJ:www.pilotlogic.com/sitejoom/index.php/forum/general-discussions/68-component-suggestion-tcolorprogress+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=dk&lr=lang_da%7Clang_en

Afterwards when studying the included components source I've noticed all references to the original author and the license was removed and instead replaced by PilotLogic, basically pretending to be their own source code whereas they have copied and changed the package name right away.

The reason WHY it has come so far is simply because PilotLogic has refused to respond to my questions about the licensing stucture of CodeTyphon and the use of 3rd party components. As they market their distribution for commercial application development especially it is very important for us developers to have clear licenses to follow and that includes 3rd party code and why they alter 3rd party code in an unfriendly manner.

I cannot for the love of god understand why it is so hard to answer such simple questions when it have such a big importance, not just for me, but the whole community.
Since they have refused to answer over and over again, I don't see any other way than reporting them to the Free Software Foundation for GPL violations.
Commercial companies are asked to play fair when using open source code, so does count equally for PilotLogic as for us as individual developers.

For instance they have included the Audio Components Suite component pack, the original LGPL and author statement are removed and the package renamed to this non-standard pl_something. Is this enough clear evidence? compare the code available from the SVN repository with the code included in the CodeTyphon release and you can see the difference - license missing.

Another example is the Cindy component pack which is popular for Delphi. They have ported over the package however, the cindy splitter component borrows code from the Delphi TSplitter which is property of borland / embarcadero.

I have also asked why they want to make the packages and IDE changes incompatible with the vanilla Lazarus IDE equally without any answer.
Even though they're intending to differentiate from the vanilla Lazarus, it would at least have suited them better to keep compatibility between the two as it would have strengthened the whole community even more.

On the bottom line I find it rather disappointing that members rather want to throw stones at each other instead of being constructive and look at the facts and evidence which has been already been posted years back.
What's coded today is saved tomorrow.

 

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