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Author Topic: Stance for hate mails and competing projects  (Read 46029 times)

JuhaManninen

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Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« on: May 01, 2015, 04:13:39 pm »
Moved from the "What about a more modern IDE?" thread.

Ha, ok,  so it will be fair if somebody of the LazTeam rectify the horrible topic =>
https://jonlennartaasenden.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/free-sparta-and-codetyphoon-violates-gpl/

Yes, that is a good example, although it is a personal blog hosted outside of Lazarus site. Obviously we cannot moderate people's personal blogs.

We need an official stance for this issue. People get a wrong idea after reading some hate mails and FUD.
This is about software. The general rule must be to respect high quality software made by anybody. It includes our projects, FPC and Lazarus, but also competing projects like the Lazarus forks and Smart Mobile Studio etc.

Even people who participate in Lazarus development are confused because there is no official stance. My opinion about the Jon. L. Aasenden blog :

The article gives an impression that the sources are not available. It is not true. The sources are available. I have downloaded some of their frequent releases and studied their sources and even copied one feature back to Lazarus.
The articles's "And what are the rules?" section has some ridiculous lines, like :
 "Provide public read access to either SVN or GIT where people can fork your changes ..."
GPL was invented before SVN or GIT even existed. I am sure the lisence does not mention them (although I am too lazy to check it now).

CodeTyphon can rename units if they want. They can make business out of their work if they want. Business around FPC and Lazarus is important for the future. For example Linux is so popular now because commercial distros supported it and made it usable for "mere mortals". Otherwise it would now be a curiosity known by few geeks only.

CodeTyphon maybe violates the lisence but not as badly as the article makes you think. They removed info about original authors and don't even mention their product is based on Lazarus. They clearly try to hide the origin. This puzzles me. Any serious user will find it out anyway, I cannot see how they could benefit from doing so.
Anyway, I am not against what CodeTyphon does but I want to understand it. It's like the "spooky action" in quantum physics. I don't want to stop particles doing it but I want to understand it.

Good luck CodeTyphon and all other Lazarus forks, and other SW projects likewise!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 09:39:17 am by JuhaManninen »
Mostly Lazarus trunk and FPC 3.2 on Manjaro Linux.

qdos

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2015, 09:44:22 pm »
I feel I have to cut into this.
First, there seem to be some idea that I hate "code typhon" for some reason. That is absolutely not true. Not by a long shot. I really love that there are so many different variations on the FPC theme, and also that new compilers and mid-range products come to market due to the FPC and it's toolchain.

The reason I wrote that article is because I have two members on the team which both have gotten their code "re-modeled". It's perhaps easy to single me out as the villain here, but I'm actually just responding.
One of the reason I became angry with the violations was not because I am against neither CT or FPC, quite the opposite - I became angry because this could potentially affect FPC and Lazarus negatively.

I also felt that FPC and Lazarus and everyone who has chipped in with their hard work deserve to be recognized, something which removing headers etc. completely undermines.

I have no axe to grind with Pilotlogic, nor am I out to troll them. Why on earth would I do that? They never did anything to me - so that would be very unfair.

Secondly, at the time I was unable to locate any sources. A week or so after that I was given a link by a member of the facebook group "Delphi developer" which also deals with freepascal, and there were indeed the sources.

But this does not remove the fact that people have contacted Pilotlogic and asked to have their code removed, being ignored in return. While I dont want to mention names here, a Danish user on our forum was quite upset over Pilotlogic. They dont respond to his email at all.

I am also very surprised that members of their forum began mentioning me by name, calling me names and even going so far as to post personal contact information. That is way out of line. It's also illegal in most european countries to something like that.

I am not hard to locate. Heck you will find me on Facebook, G+ or through my blog. I can also be reached here (although I dont visit that often, but once in a while).

Sending me an email should be more than possible, which i can respect rather than name-calling on a forum where I am unable to even defend myself.

Either way, the danish member came to my aid when I last visited the forum. But as he posted the "evidence" of his code being violated, he was kicked and banned. The thread was later deleted. Not exactly fair play to say the least.

So I am all for cleaning up this mess. I'm not hard to deal with at all. If I have done something wrong then I have no problem issuing an apology and altering the post. But I do expect the same level of respect in return.
The moment we start getting personal, that's where I draw the line.

When it comes to the other types of slandering, like the odd rumor (also posted on pilotlogic's forum) that I was secretly undermining Lazarus and CT with the sole aim of building my own system --- I cant even take that serious.
My Linux system is built with Lazarus, why on earth would I try to undermine it?
The same can be said about CT -- I dont want one object pascal system, I want as many object pascal compilers and systems as we can make. That's how we can keep object pascal relevant -- and also make sure FPC get's the position it deserves.

Well, I hope this clears up the confusion.
I am not the devil, I dont have an axe to grid, I am not trolling and hold no ill will towards anyone. Especially not the FPC/Lazarus community which I actually wanted to protect and ensure got the recognition it deserves.

 

« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 09:52:48 pm by qdos »

lainz

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2015, 10:13:04 pm »
I was surprised too when I see pl-bgracontrols with everything changed and also using old stuff.

Also there was used in other commercial IDE i cant remember the name, never checked if right or wrong.

I readed your blog and seems legit. If something is done the wrong way, actually not just wrong but out if law we must say it.

If I must follow rules of lgpl others too.
Most companies i see that upload the modified source (i see for example spotify) to a public download (it can be a repository or a zip containing the sources) but they must provide it.

In bgracontrols i personally adapted third party components to include inside, detailing which changes i made originally (also improvements and bug fixes) according to license, keeping the headers untouched or whit a log of changes and of course provided the source.
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qdos

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2015, 10:18:14 pm »
My point exactly. And it's not the end of the world either.
It cant be that hard to send an email and say "im sorry", put their names back in the header and write a few proxy class declarations.

I didnt poll the story out of thin air, this is something people have been talking about for quite some time. It's easy to try to pin it on me and the article, but the post was written after the fact - not motivating the fact.

I for one feel it's common courtecy and respect to include the author's name. I feel a bit sad for the FPC/Lazarus community - because with all that hard work at the very least the programmers deserve to have their name in the source. It costs so little and means so much for what we do.

Well, If I have done something wrong then I have no problems apologizing for that. But after having my name slandered with contact information etc.  -- thats just out of line.

lainz

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2015, 10:24:27 pm »
thats just evil.
you are not even saying that is a bad project just to be respectfull.
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qdos

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2015, 11:03:38 pm »
Absolutely not -- they are both excellent projects!
But we should all try to play by the rules. Well, that was my point anyway.

But suddenly finding my real name of their forum, my home address and phone number.

Well, I hope (with respect to this thread) that we can also set a stance on such behavior. You can disagree with me as much as you like, I wont post your home address, phone number etc. Nor would I slander you by name (we are all adults with kids, family and jobs).

I will respond to them naturally on my blog, with clear cut evidence. Although it's not a court-case.

But at I want to underline that my response to them back then, was not against FPC/lazarus. Quite the opposite, i felt they could have at least kept the names of all those people who have coded the LCL, Lazarus and FPC.

The FPC/lazarus crew deserve a medal if you ask me. All those years of hard work.

Well, if I have done wrong then I will be the first to apologize. But I think more and more people will respond to their behavior (or the members on their forum). I know at least of 3 people which I have spoken with personally who are really angry with them over their code being used.

Well, it's up to them. I just hope everyone understands that I'm not out to blame anyone. I'll take responsibility for my mistakes - and I expect others to do the same.

taazz

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2015, 11:38:04 pm »
I know at least of 3 people which I have spoken with personally who are really angry with them over their code being used.
To much defense not enough evidence, keep the developers and their stories out of public eye just post which libraries they misused and how.
Although I agree that removing the license info from the top of the file is questionable (and probably against the license) I do it all the time. I find that all those license comments are getting in my way when I work with the code so I usually delete them the first time I open the unit in the editor and replace them with a license file in the library directory or an acronym on top (mpl/ mit/ lgpl+static etc) something really sort. I hate that I have to scroll a couple of screen before I can see the interface section or worse loose the ifdefs on top because I thought they where part of the license block, then again I do not share those files. I'm more interested to see what libraries they misused and asked to be removed and under which license they where published. Then we can talk about what they should or should not have done. Until then the exchange of war stories is a nice way to pass time.

Sorry but all open source authors have been accused at one time or the other for plagiarism even when nothing wrong was purposely done, in huge projects like lazarus and TC if you start doing more than the absolutely minimum requirements then you will soon find your self overwhelmed with meaningless tasks not to mention people that see evil everywhere regardless of effort. So excuse me if I'm not going to jump in that train just yet.
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Fred vS

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2015, 12:26:42 am »
Quote
But after having my name slandered with contact information etc.  -- thats just out of line.

I agree with you.

But have you seen that he deleted directly that infos ?
Do not forget that you treat him like the evil, giving the name of his company, all that to a public blog.
And all that horror without a single prove.

Yes, i love fpc and his community and i will never let that lies unpunished.
The best thing for you to do is to publish a new article, apologizing the bad you have done.

You already killed Sparta, let me defend CodeTyphon.

And in the future, before to write some lies, inform you.

Fre;D 

[EDIT] I just seen your new answer on your blog.
I will stop to fight with you, you are too weak for me, your arguments are too bad and ridiculous.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 03:09:54 am by Fred vS »
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Fred vS

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2015, 01:31:15 am »
Quote
I do it all the time. I find that all those license comments are getting in my way when I work with the code so I usually delete them the first time I open the unit in the editor

You may delete it if you want but it is the only way for open source developers to protect (a little) their work.
And with that, the classical "i did not know" is impossible.

And about CT, for my components that it uses, i have nothing to say, they let the original license infos intact.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 01:53:08 am by Fred vS »
I use Lazarus 2.0.6 32/64 and FPC 3.2.0 32/64 on Debian 10.2 64 bit, Windows 10, Windows 7 32/64, Windows XP 32,  FreeBSD 64 and Mac OS X Snow Leopard 32.
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JuhaManninen

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2015, 02:01:15 am »
Originally my goal was more generic, not about CodeTyphon only, but I can return to that later.

Now about CodeTyphon. It is very possible that also in their forum the conflicts have escalated because some people accuse others repeatedly and pull more people into it. Finally facts have no importance any more, people just fight each other. This happens in this forum sometimes and it is very difficult to stop.

It must look very funny from outside. Pascal is a dying language in many people's eyes. Small dying Pascal sects fight each other.
This reminds me of communist parties in our recent parliament elections. They are out of fashion and have split into small fighting groups. One leader explained that North Korea is a model country lead by workers and our government should join close relations with them. Others disagreed. Yes, it is hilarious ...
Now think of it: Names of some Pascal-people are not listed in a text file of other Pascal-people's project, thus they start to fight!
Must be truly amusing from outside.
At least I don't give a shit if my name is not listed in their project's readme.txt file.

So guys, let's keep the proportions in mind and relax the attitude a bit. CodeTyphon is doing extremely weird things. They deserve extra bonus points just for being weird but still staying alive.
Sternas has a little poor English. The last time he visited here (~2 years ago) he clearly misunderstood an innocent question about their changes in a component. He thought he was accused of something and he left. Maybe he already had got negative feedback from other people then. I can imagine there are more misunderstandings for this reason.
Earlier he was asked about a revision control access to their sources. His answer was that they don't use revision control! More weirdo extra bonus points dropping ...
They fork everything and do not contribute back. They drive some code through Jedi Code Formatter and change unit names, which would make the contributing back difficult anyway.
Yes it is weird but they are allowed to do so. They walk their own paths and it is ok. They make business, yes, but I doubt they make fortunes with their Lazarus fork. Let's remember the perspective and proportions.

My hope is that all good quality software gets respect here.
CodeTyphon has done some things well and they deserve respect for it. At least their cross-platform compilation and customer support work well, so I have read.

Important: We don't need to behave like dying sects or unpopular communist parties. This language and project are technically sound and have a bright future. Let's use energy for constructive things.

P.S.
The North Korea's friend got almost 60 votes in our elections. How many of them voted him as a joke, I don't know.
I voted a Pirate Party myself. They didn't get anybody elected either but my candidate got much more than 60 votes.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 02:13:13 am by JuhaManninen »
Mostly Lazarus trunk and FPC 3.2 on Manjaro Linux.

Fred vS

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2015, 02:21:35 am »
Quote
Important: We don't need to behave like dying sects or unpopular communist parties. This language and project are technically sound and have a bright future. Let's use energy for constructive things.

Pascal is the most human language.
Respect is part of fpc project.

I do not see different IDE as a competitors but as the saga of Ubuntu.
Mint split from Ubuntu and both are still friends, sharing lot of things.
And what appends... ( http://distrowatch.com/ ) they are both on the top of statistics, far away from all the others.

And fpc community is clever enough to wash the dirty laundry with family.

No need to external Delphi guru to say what we have to do.

Fre;D


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Martin_fr

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2015, 02:28:29 am »
The 2 packages named. What license are they ? (bgra seems lgpl + mod)

About the license header.  I just checked the (L)GPL (copy that comes with Lazarus / Did not check other versions, or which version applies to those packages).

(L)GPL:
Quote
keep intact all the notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty

So removing those notices does break the license.
I did not search, but I guess that copyright notices must also be kept.


Renaming files, and changes to other types of comments, I would expect to be covered by the license.

Also afaik the license does not state that the author has to be informed (matter of politeness maybe). It does however state that the files must be marked as edited, so that users know they do not have the original.

Fred vS

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2015, 02:37:57 am »
@ Martin_fr => hmmm, I wanted to keep quiet but if you ask it...

I answered to his last topic but... he deleted my answer.  :-X

That was my answer :

Source [1]:
http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,28225.msg176503.html#msg176503

Source [2]:
http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,28224.msg176241.html#msg176241
I use Lazarus 2.0.6 32/64 and FPC 3.2.0 32/64 on Debian 10.2 64 bit, Windows 10, Windows 7 32/64, Windows XP 32,  FreeBSD 64 and Mac OS X Snow Leopard 32.
Widgetset: fpGUI, MSEgui, Win32, GTK2, Qt, Carbon.

https://github.com/fredvs
https://gitlab.com/fredvs

JuhaManninen

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2015, 11:00:31 am »
qdos, you should delete your blog for sake of the future of this project.
You write that you are a friend of FPC and Lazarus, but your actions make us look bad. People reading your blog automatically think it represents this project's views.
We have already seen the war coming here. Some individuals have claimed that Lazarus developers are evil and hate competition. It is a lie, I have not seen any hate mails from the developers, but when the lie is repeated enough many times it becomes true in peoples' minds.

I want to stop hate mails in this forum. Hate mails against this project's developers but also against other projects.
As long as you have the "war declaration" blog in the net, at the same time writing in this forum, you will pull the war with you.
Lots of damage has happened already but let's try to minimize the consequences. Please remove your blog!
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Fred vS

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Re: Stance for hate mails and competing projects
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2015, 01:19:16 pm »
Quote
Please remove your blog!
+ 1000
I use Lazarus 2.0.6 32/64 and FPC 3.2.0 32/64 on Debian 10.2 64 bit, Windows 10, Windows 7 32/64, Windows XP 32,  FreeBSD 64 and Mac OS X Snow Leopard 32.
Widgetset: fpGUI, MSEgui, Win32, GTK2, Qt, Carbon.

https://github.com/fredvs
https://gitlab.com/fredvs

 

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