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What do you think about reorganizing of Lazarus IDE?

No. I like old Delphi IDE style and I don't want any changes.
36 (46.8%)
Yes. I'd like Lazarus to looks like a modern IDE ( let's say, Visual Studio)
35 (45.5%)
I'm not smart enough to decide betwee these two choices.
6 (7.8%)

Total Members Voted: 75

Author Topic: What about a more modern IDE?  (Read 48368 times)

Gosh

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What about a more modern IDE?
« on: April 29, 2015, 05:10:15 pm »
As we know the first version of Delphi was published 21 years ago. Borland stopped to use this kind of IDE more than 10 years ago.

If I may to ask, why Lazarus programmers stubbornly insist on this archaically designed interface instead of creating something more useful and more productive? Why we have to press F12 hundred of times every day? In my case it is placed (F12) right before DEL key and I frequently have to undo changes because of that. 

What's the problem to create a normal GUI which will look like all other modern GUI?  I'm not a newbie in programming but I didn't work with Delphi/Pascal before. After a few days of using Lazarus IDE I just can say that I am deeply frustrated with many options which I found here.  Take a look at any other IDE and you'll see how much easier is to work with them than with Lazarus IDE. It is terribly hard to manipulate a project with a larger number of forms.

I know, there's a lot people who previously worked with old Delphi and they like this IDE but I'm sure that they wouldn't be against a more powerful and more useful IDE.

Why not to create something which will be similar to Delphi 10 lite environment?   It is not such a large job. PRactically all modules already exists an it is just a few days of job to create a MDI version. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 05:22:49 pm by Gosh »

lazjump

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2015, 05:28:16 pm »
Hmmm the IDE is fine for me... perhaps you just need some time to get used to it.

Anyway, how do you define "more useful and more productive"?
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taazz

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2015, 05:31:31 pm »
As we know the first version of Delphi was published 21 years ago. Borland stopped to use this kind of IDE more than 10 years ago.

If I may to ask, why Lazarus programmers stubbornly insist on this archaically designed interface instead of creating something more useful and more productive?

You are kidding right? You think that generic statements like that are going to help your cause? Let me ask you this instead, why today excel and all other spreadsheet have the same archaic design?

Why we have press F12 hundred of times every day? In my case it is placed right before DEL key and I frequently have to undo changes because of that. 
So? redefine the key something more "safe" for you, or you want someone else to redefine that too?

What's the problem to create a normal GUI which will look like all other modern GUI? 
the problem is that there is nothing abnormal for the existing design. As for modern what would you consider modern?. Generic statement like that are not helping.


I'm not a newbie in programming but I didn't work with Delphi/Pascal before. After a few days of using Lazarus IDE I just can say that I am deeply frustrated with many options which I found here.  Take a look at any other IDE and you'll see how much easier is to work with them than with Lazarus IDE. It is terribly hard to manipulate a project with a larger number of forms.
No its not, you are not used to it yet give it a year.

know, there's a lot people who previously worked with old Delphi and they like this IDE but I'm sure that they wouldn't be against a more powerful and more useful IDE.
Why not to create something which will be similar to Delphi 10 lite environment?   It is not such a large job. PRactically all modules already exists an it is just a few days of job to create a MDI version.

We are not against a more powerful IDE no. We are against creating one if we do not need one. You have the need, provide a prototype that works semi stable to understand what you mean by "more powerful" "Easier to use" and other generic ideas then we can have a base for information exchange and more productive dialog until then its a pipe dream and I'd rather not spend more time on yours I have my own to worry about.
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Gosh

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2015, 05:39:09 pm »
Anyway, how do you define "more useful and more productive"?

I wrote about Delphi 10 Lite which is a fork of Delphi 2005/6. Its size is about 30MB and offers much more possibilities than this one. It is just an example.

Generally, I'm working with VS and I can say that it is rather slow but powerful, too.

jwdietrich

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2015, 05:48:12 pm »
In my opinion Lazarus has an excellent GUI, but, of course, my opinion is not necessarily representative.

As we know the first version of Delphi was published 21 years ago. Borland stopped to use this kind of IDE more than 10 years ago.

Yes, but Embarcadero's modern IDEs are incredibly slow.

If I may to ask, why Lazarus programmers stubbornly insist on this archaically designed interface instead of creating something more useful and more productive? Why we have to press F12 hundred of times every day? In my case it is placed (F12) right before DEL key and I frequently have to undo changes because of that. 

Did you know that you can change the key mappings with Tools > Options > Key Mappings?

Why not to create something which will be similar to Delphi 10 lite environment?   It is not such a large job. PRactically all modules already exists an it is just a few days of job to create a MDI version.

MDI is an obsolete GUI concept. It was created by Microsoft only to circumwent being sued by Apple due to violation of intellectual property. I am happy that the Lazarus team refrained from implementing this MDI nonsense.
function GetRandomNumber: integer; // xkcd.com
begin
  GetRandomNumber := 4; // chosen by fair dice roll. Guaranteed to be random.
end;

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Gosh

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2015, 05:54:29 pm »
You are kidding right? You think that generic statements like that are going to help your cause?
What is incorrect in my statements?

Quote
Let me ask you this instead, why today excel and all other spreadsheet have the same archaic design?

Concept is the same, Excel IDE itself is different and much more advanced than those from 90s. Mouse without musewheel is a mouse too but it is much more handy to use mouse with a wheel, right? Or you suggest to go back on a mouse with a rubber ball inside?  %)   

Quote
So? redefine the key something more "safe" for you, or you want someone else to redefine that too?

It is not a question of redefining but of concept itself. It is 100x more practical to see form inside of GUI's tab (as in any normal IDE) than to search for F12 every time.

Quote
the problem is that there is nothing abnormal for the existing design. As for modern what would you consider modern?. Generic statement like that are not helping.

I dodn't say that it is abnormal. Visually I even can say that I like it but iti is not practical at all!



Quote
We are not against a more powerful IDE no. We are against creating one if we do not need one. You have the need, provide a prototype that works semi stable to understand what you mean by "more powerful" "Easier to use" and other generic ideas then we can have a base for information exchange and more productive dialog until then its a pipe dream and I'd rather not spend more time on yours I have my own to worry about.

As I already said Delphi Lite is a nice example of a modern, practical, powerful and useful IDE.

P.S. Nobody asked you to spend your time on this topic, right? It is just a suggestion with the best possible intentions. Nothing else.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 05:56:40 pm by Gosh »

taazz

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2015, 05:58:43 pm »
MDI is an obsolete GUI concept. It was created by Microsoft only to circumwent being sued by Apple due to violation of intellectual property. I am happy that the Lazarus team refrained from implementing this MDI nonsense.
You mean that the less useful tabbed design is better?
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lainz

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2015, 06:10:00 pm »
I see what you say.
Im now using visual studio 2013 with c# and its very impressive. I can drag and drop components from a panel in the left that has also a nice search box. The properties in their object inspector are better organized by categories.
Everything can be placed where I want and has also the classic run button like lazarus. The file explorer at the right is easy to navigate and add new stuff like forms, classes and so on.Maybe there are a lot of cool things to say but I only used it a few days.
Im used to lazarus and switching from one to other is not hard.
I see that xamarin studio has a similar approach like visual studio but i dont like their form editor with no automatic aligning, like is available in lazarus and visual studio.
The intellisense is pretty fast in vs and i cant finish typing that a lot of things are shown in the error window, maybe it can be configured to slow it a bit... at least i can hide that window when im typing.
The components are placed in a special part at the bottom of form editor. So components are not in top of my form like in lazarus.
There is a panel for database sources.
The settings of project are quick comparing to lazarus, lazarus have lots of things...
There is something called resources or something like that where i can put strings and other things... i ve not tested it yet.

I use lazarus and vs. Both are good, but imagine vs looking like lazarus and lazarus looking like vs!

Maybe lazarus can be modernized but it just works fine as is.

marcov

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2015, 06:20:13 pm »
You are kidding right? You think that generic statements like that are going to help your cause?
What is incorrect in my statements?

They are vague statements of intention only. Worse, they don't provide the resources to design and implement such changes or even just a concrete plan to do so.

It is like asking "Would you like an end to world hunger?", which is also guaranteed to get a lot of positive response, but not bring the end of world hunger a step closer till you actually *do* something about it.

sky_khan

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2015, 06:22:13 pm »

If I may to ask, why Lazarus programmers stubbornly insist on this archaically designed interface instead of creating something more useful and more productive? Why we have to press F12 hundred of times every day? In my case it is placed (F12) right before DEL key and I frequently have to undo changes because of that. 

I dont think they are stubborn or something. It is just lack of manpower. There are example packages which turns Lazarus IDE to docking environment but IMO they are half finished and buggy.
BTW I use 2 keyboards at the same time on my machine. One of them has Turkish (my native language) layout. I use it when I surfing web etc and the other one has standart US layout which I use while I am programming :)

Gosh

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2015, 06:22:21 pm »
To be more clear, this is what I am talking about.

If someone think that Lazarus environment is better than that shown on pics... I only can to congratulate


BitBangerUSA

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2015, 06:23:46 pm »
about reorganizing the Lazarus IDE?

you should jump right on that, Gosh.
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lainz

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2015, 06:26:11 pm »
You are kidding right? You think that generic statements like that are going to help your cause?
What is incorrect in my statements?

They are vague statements of intention only. Worse, they don't provide the resources to design and implement such changes or even just a concrete plan to do so.

It is like asking "Would you like an end to world hunger?", which is also guaranteed to get a lot of positive response, but not bring the end of world hunger a step closer till you actually *do* something about it.

I think that he is angry because the ide is not working for him like  he said in his other thread. So the main idea is not to imrprove lazarus just to say that is not working.

Of course lazarus sometimes does not work, but for example when i said something is not working in this forum in most cases people used their valuable time into fixing things for me and the others. And that is really nice.

But a redesign of the ide will not fix his problem. I think.

Blaazen

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2015, 06:27:56 pm »
Quote
The properties in their object inspector are better organized by categories.

Qt Designer has it too. It C++ world it may be done thanks to multiple inheritance (probably).

I'm not sure how to implement it in Lazarus. Maybe hardcode it to OI (category Geometry: Width, Left, Anchors, etc.) or use IDE directives {%xxx}

Lazarus 2.1.0 r59757M FPC 3.3.1 r40507 x86_64-linux-qt Chakra, Qt 4.8.7/5.11.2, Plasma 5.14.2
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Try Eye-Candy Controls: https://sourceforge.net/projects/eccontrols/files/

lainz

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Re: What about a more modern IDE?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2015, 06:31:28 pm »
Quote
The properties in their object inspector are better organized by categories.

Qt Designer has it too. It C++ world it may be done thanks to multiple inheritance (probably).

I'm not sure how to implement it in Lazarus. Maybe hardcode it to OI (category Geometry: Width, Left, Anchors, etc.) or use IDE directives {%xxx}
Yes thats a good idea. IDE specific things will not break the pascal code. IMHO. Maybe putting it inside a specific kind of comment.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 06:33:33 pm by 007 »