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Author Topic: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!  (Read 11681 times)

cdavidson

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2020, 11:00:58 pm »
Quote
Hi Zeljko,

Thanks for your mail about our TIOBE index. They reason why we split up Object Pascal and Delphi is indeed because they have different Wikipedia pages. We follow this rule very strictly because we get every day requests to combine or split up languages and we need some formal mechanism for this. The reasoning is that if 2 languages have different Wikipedia pages something must be different otherwise there wouldn't be 2 different pages.

It is important to note that another criterion is that Wikipedia should refer to it as a programming language. Microsoft Visual C++ is considered "an IDE" so it doesn't even qualify for the TIOBE index.

So if you want me to join Object Pascal and Delphi again and then please make sure the Wikipedia entries are merged as was the case in the past. I hope that this answers your question.

Regards,

Paul

Well, this is crap!  Visual Studio has its own Wiki page, Code::Blocks has its own Wiki page, GNU Compiler has its own Wiki page, etc... and C++ has a Wiki page therefore it's a language. 

In contrast...

Delphi has its own Wiki page, Lazarus has its own Wiki page, GNU Pascal has its own Wiki page, etc... and Object Pascal has a Wiki page (which mentions Delphi, Free Pascal, GNU Pascal, Oxygene, etc)... but it's not a language?!?!

So why does Object Pascal not stand on its own just as C++ does???  By Paul's reasoning, C++ has a Wiki page and GNU Compiler has its own Wiki page therefore -> split up C++ since both of these have their own Wiki page  :D

GAN

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2020, 11:17:08 pm »
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They reason why we split up Object Pascal and Delphi is indeed because they have different Wikipedia pages.

A site specializing in programming languages should base its stupid index on Wikipedia. They laugh in our face.
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Ñuño_Martínez

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2020, 11:28:40 am »
A site specializing in programming languages should base its stupid index on Wikipedia. They laugh in our face.
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marcov

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2020, 02:41:09 pm »
After another mail, I got a reply from the guy that he will reconsider.

So not 100% positive, but at least he confirms that the rules are maybe overly simplistic.

simone

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2020, 11:39:58 am »
I share the mail received from TIOBE. I have no words...

"Hi Simone,
Thanks a lot for your mail. Lots of members of the Delphi/Object Pascal community reacted similarly like you did about the split up. And not that nicely as you have put it.
In order to make clear that Delphi should  not be considered a programming language but as an IDE for Object Pascal, somebody changed Delphi's Wikipedia page on the 14th of April. Until that time Delphi was defined as being a programming language and thus treated like that. I have warned the community that if this change will happen it will have major consequences. Now that I have observed that Delphi is not a programming language any more, it will be removed as a search term from the index. In other words, only Object Pascal will remain. So no more Delphi in the charts and only Object Pascal at position #67.
The same happened to ColdFusion 10 years ago. ColdFusion is the programming environment and CFML is the programming language. Once we changed that CFML didn't show up anymore high in the charts. The community was furious about this.
Of course everybody will argue that Delphi should be part of the Object Pascal search term after this. But we are very strict in this otherwise we have to add Visual Studio to C++ and C#, Rails to Ruby and even Excel to Visual Basic and then the end is near of all possible combinations. So please inform the Object Pascal community that they will not be happy as of next month.
Regards,
Paul"
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jwdietrich

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2020, 01:07:25 pm »
This is debunkging.

What is so difficult in adding the results for Delphi and Object Pascal (and Free Pascal and GNU Pascal etc.) and to filter out the duplicates?

The stubborn reply reminds me of the defiant response of a three year-old child that was catched when steling sweets. TIOBE has disqualified as a scientific (or at least useful) instrument. Forget about it. It isn't much more meaningful than a collection of random numbers.
function GetRandomNumber: integer; // xkcd.com
begin
  GetRandomNumber := 4; // chosen by fair dice roll. Guaranteed to be random.
end;

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marcov

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2020, 02:14:31 pm »
And then to think that TIOBE stands for "The Importance Of Being Earnest". It would be funny it it weren't so sad, sigh.

I don't think the goal is science, the whole thing is probably mostly for publicity. Their rules are just to avoid discussion and reduce maintenance. But probably they bend them for parties they care about if they relate to their business.

I never considered the whole premise of it as of particular value because the principle is fundamentally flawed, counting all users and their actions as equal, without much filtering. IOW a person referencing PHP while doing a one day job customizing some web package is counted as much as a reference made by a fulltime programmer on some other language's occasional question.

It sounds very equal of course, but the resulting stats are mostly useless.

Now it turnes out that even the execution of the flawed principle is deeply flawed.

The only thing we can do is redirect all TIOBE questions to this thread.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 02:37:57 pm by marcov »

dbannon

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2020, 02:36:20 pm »
I accept the argument that Delphi is an IDE for Object Pascal, much like Lazarus is.  But his second last sentence -

Quote
...add Visual Studio to C++ and C#, Rails to Ruby and even Excel to Visual Basic

is just plain silly. Visual Studio is used with C++, .net, C# and even Python apparently.  Very few Excel users write VB content.  Whereas one can assume, quite safely that a Delphi user is writing Object Pascal.

On the other hand, the first line indicates to me that he did not appreciate a barrage of email from Lazarus users and this approach is punishment for people being vocal.  If TIOBE's methodology is that easily manipulated to settle personal scores, its worthless !

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marcov

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2020, 02:40:23 pm »
I accept the argument that Delphi is an IDE for Object Pascal, much like Lazarus is.

Actually, it isn't. Delphi is mostly the brand name. The IDE is called "BDS". Maybe the old (D7- IDE was called Delphi)

Quote
On the other hand, the first line indicates to me that he did not appreciate a barrage of email from Lazarus users and this approach is punishment for people being vocal.  If TIOBE's methodology is that easily manipulated to settle personal scores, its worthless !

Indeed. It was fairly worthless anyway, except as tool in useless language debate. But it shows they don't take audience and their communities serious in any way.

I wonder if C/C++ contains "GCC" or LLVM or CLANG.

It might also be related that some other languages, like FreeBasic have probably tried to get more terms included. There are a handful of users on both forums.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 11:55:08 am by marcov »

marcov

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2020, 05:07:07 pm »
... and they merged the categories again in June.

Ñuño_Martínez

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2020, 11:27:52 am »
They cite Zbynek Fiala. Who's he?
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avra

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2020, 07:56:30 pm »
... and they merged the categories again in June.
Good news but something fishy is still going on. In January Delphi/ObjectPascal was 12th, i February 18th, and now 22nd. Half the popularity in less then 6 months. I guess we could be number one if we apply that popularity loss for a Guinness world record. As long as Tiobe is alive no one will be able to take that from us.
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wp

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2020, 08:00:24 pm »
And when I scroll down https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index// to "Very Long Term History" Pascal is even at #243. A very mysterious site...
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Leledumbo

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2020, 09:21:54 am »
And when I scroll down https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index// to "Very Long Term History" Pascal is even at #243. A very mysterious site...
Before this separation, they already separate Pascal from Object Pascal/Delphi. Sounds like a team of a**hole trying hard to make bad impression for Pascal. They just don't want Pascal to enter the top 20 or even the top 10. You don't see any other languages treated this way.

argb32

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Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2020, 01:35:27 pm »
Why someone still cares about this rating? It's obviously crappy. And doesn't show something real nor for Pascal nor for other languages. Just forget about it. ;)

 

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