Recent

Author Topic: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!  (Read 12171 times)

jwdietrich

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1148
    • formatio reticularis
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2020, 05:57:07 pm »
OK, for the one case one language may be clearer and for the other case another one. Your argument with the age of StackOverflow is a good alternative hypothesis.
function GetRandomNumber: integer; // xkcd.com
begin
  GetRandomNumber := 4; // chosen by fair dice roll. Guaranteed to be random.
end;

http://www.formatio-reticularis.de

Lazarus 2.0.10 | FPC 3.2.0 | PPC, Intel, ARM | macOS, Windows, Linux


jwdietrich

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1148
    • formatio reticularis
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2020, 07:06:49 pm »
Omg, Pascal rank 235

... in a meaningless index, which uses a questionable method and which has separate entries for Pascal, Object Pascal and Delphi. What is listed under "Pascal" is pure old-style Pascal without OOP.
function GetRandomNumber: integer; // xkcd.com
begin
  GetRandomNumber := 4; // chosen by fair dice roll. Guaranteed to be random.
end;

http://www.formatio-reticularis.de

Lazarus 2.0.10 | FPC 3.2.0 | PPC, Intel, ARM | macOS, Windows, Linux

Leledumbo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Programming + Glam Metal + Tae Kwon Do = Me
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2020, 12:44:17 am »
I just sent them a protest email, because I was one of many who make them merged back in 2011. Here's my email content:
Quote
Hello,

I specifically want to point out this month's index change:

"Ian pointed out that Delphi and Object Pascal have separate Wikipedia pages so they should also have different TIOBE index entries. As of this month Delphi and Object Pascal are split. Delphi is at position #22 and Object Pascal at position #73."

As with the same reasoning they were merged back in 2011, which I also requested, Delphi in as implementation of Object Pascal, as well as what Free Pascal and some other compilers implement. If your argument is because these two have separate Wikipedia pages, then I expect you, in the name of justice, to have Visual C++ separated from C++, as well as Embarcadero C++ Builder, which is the Delphi equivalent from the same company, Intel C++ Compiler and so on.

Regards,

Mario Ray Mahardhika
I encourage you to send similar email so they realize how wrong they have been.

avra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2044
    • Additional info
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2020, 04:39:03 pm »
I encourage you to send similar email so they realize how wrong they have been.
++1

Quote
Hello,

I want to strongly protest after finding out that as of this month Delphi and Object Pascal are split again in TIOBE index.

Delphi in as implementation of Object Pascal. Free Pascal is also implementation of Object Pascal. They should not be separated at all, and how similar they are clearly shows the fact that there are dozens of very complex projects which share the same code base and can be compiled under both.

Argument that this was done because they have separate Wikipedia pages can hold only if you do the same for C++ and starting next month I see it split into separate Microsoft Visual C++, Embarcadero C++ Builder, Intel C++ Compiler, GNU C++ and so on. Otherwise it will be obvious that for some reason Pascal is discriminated in TIOBE index, and I do hope that it is not the case here.


Regards,
Zeljko Avramovic
ct2laz - Conversion between Lazarus and CodeTyphon
bithelpers - Bit manipulation for standard types
pasettimino - Siemens S7 PLC lib

avra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2044
    • Additional info
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2020, 05:47:28 pm »
Here is a reply I publish here with the permission of Mr. Paul Jansen of TIOBE Software:

Quote
Hi Zeljko,

Thanks for your mail about our TIOBE index. They reason why we split up Object Pascal and Delphi is indeed because they have different Wikipedia pages. We follow this rule very strictly because we get every day requests to combine or split up languages and we need some formal mechanism for this. The reasoning is that if 2 languages have different Wikipedia pages something must be different otherwise there wouldn't be 2 different pages.

It is important to note that another criterion is that Wikipedia should refer to it as a programming language. Microsoft Visual C++ is considered "an IDE" so it doesn't even qualify for the TIOBE index.

So if you want me to join Object Pascal and Delphi again and then please make sure the Wikipedia entries are merged as was the case in the past. I hope that this answers your question.

Regards,

Paul
ct2laz - Conversion between Lazarus and CodeTyphon
bithelpers - Bit manipulation for standard types
pasettimino - Siemens S7 PLC lib

marcov

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8898
  • FPC developer.
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2020, 06:07:24 pm »
I sent a mail with my take on the issue.

Warfley

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 323
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2020, 06:13:58 pm »
As I said... C++ is a bad example, because borland c++, intelc++, etc. are all tools for c++, that fully support ISO-C++ and only extend the language. Take any ISO-C++ programm, it runs on every C++ compiler. Take any Delphi-Program it most likely won't work in mode ObjFPC as these two dialects are different in some fundamental language featues (e.g. function pointers, generics, operator overloading, etc.)

I mean sure the reasoning about wikipedia doesn't really make sense and this should be decided on a case by case basis (e.g. vb6 and vb.net are also distinguished and I think no one argues with that), but with this framework they are consistent.
The only exception I've found in their top 50's was LISP, where the original LISP language is now 70 years old and not used anymore, and all modern LISP dialects also have their own wikipedia pages.

marcov

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8898
  • FPC developer.
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2020, 06:19:53 pm »
The problem is that one side is a registered trademark.

Moreover, Delphi is awfully random, everything is branded Delphi sooner or later. Just like the IDE is not Delphi either, but "BDS", the language of Delphi is not "Delphi", but "Delphi language" according to their own marketing and documentation materials.

And even in wikipedia, "Delphi language" is an alias for "Object Pascal" since 2006.

I put those facts into my mail.

zbyna

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2020, 07:06:15 pm »
I changed wiki text for Delphi from:

Delphi is an event-driven programming language based on Object Pascal and an associated integrated development environment (IDE) for rapid application development of desktop, mobile, web, and console software,[1] currently developed and maintained by Embarcadero Technologies.

to:
Delphi is an integrated development environment (IDE) for rapid application development of desktop, mobile, web, and console software,[1] currently developed and maintained by Embarcadero Technologies which uses an event-driven programming language based on Object Pascal.

We will see how long it will persist.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 09:09:26 pm by zbyna »

Leledumbo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8279
  • Programming + Glam Metal + Tae Kwon Do = Me
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2020, 07:43:53 pm »
e.g. vb6 and vb.net are also distinguished and I think no one argues with that
Well, the two are not really compatible actually, despite looking similar. The case is very different with Object Pascal as implemented by Delphi and Free Pascal, where language and even library compatibility reaches over 90%. At the worst, one can still maintain single codebase that compiles with both using conditional compilation. You can't do that with VB6 and VB .NET, hence it's correct to separate the entry. Even Microsoft as the creator of both said VB .NET is closer to C# than to VB6.

Warfley

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 323
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2020, 08:50:54 pm »
Well, the two are not really compatible actually, despite looking similar. The case is very different with Object Pascal as implemented by Delphi and Free Pascal, where language and even library compatibility reaches over 90%. At the worst, one can still maintain single codebase that compiles with both using conditional compilation. You can't do that with VB6 and VB .NET, hence it's correct to separate the entry. Even Microsoft as the creator of both said VB .NET is closer to C# than to VB6.

Yes, with {$Mode Delphi} that is certainly true. But if you use a modern Delphi code and you don't use {$Mode Delphi} you'd go insane fixing the code for compiling with {$Mode ObjFPC}. The dialects are very close to each other, thats true, but as soon as you look into "newer" features such as generics, operator overloadeing, etc. you need to use {$Mode Delphi} if you wan't to be compatible and keep your sanity.
It also isn't true anymore for many libraries. Delphis RTL now heavily relies on generics like TList is now generic, while in FPCs RTL generic types are added with their own names, and don't take a central role.

I don't know about VB.net today, but back in 2008 when I used it, it still provided all the default vb6 libraries (in their own namespeace), so that you could rather easiely port VB6 code to VB.net. So much so that VS08 even provided a conversion tool that would convert your old VB6 programs to VB.Net. Sure it's not fully comparable, Lazarus can also be used to convert Delphi Projects to Lazarus, but the other way around is much harder

marcov

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8898
  • FPC developer.
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2020, 08:58:48 pm »
First reply was not exactly positive. Pretty much as expected. They hide behind rules they created themselves. :Pathetic.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 09:07:06 pm by marcov »

Otto

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2020, 09:17:15 pm »
 It comes naturally to me to quote:
(<< Non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa >>  “Divina Commedia” by Dante Alighieri.)
You won't care about them, but look and pass over.


Otto.

 
Kind regards.

marcov

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8898
  • FPC developer.
Re: TIOBE Programming Index merges Object Pascal and Delphi!
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2020, 10:35:31 pm »
It's the same story for all the online businesses.  The rules have nothing to do with the problem under discussion.

The rules are solely meant to be a hard cap of time that can be spent on the project (and since it is just about publicity: not much)

 

TinyPortal © 2005-2018